Delighted to be in conversation with certified financial advisor Esther Szabo, principal of Gates Pass Advisors, on her Women & Wealth podcast. Esther and Gates Pass Advisors focus on the specific financial needs of women in transition. I cannot recommend Esther enough for her careful, thoughtful approach to serving her clients. In this conversation, we explore the decision-making styles of several Enneagram types that Esther often encounters in her practice. Each type requires a distinct approach within an overarching decision-making framework. Thanks again to Esther for the conversation and the opportunity to explore the Enneagram in the context of financial decision making.
You can learn more about Esther and Gates Pass Advisors at www.gatespassadvisors.com
Transcript
Aric Johnson:
Welcome to the Women and Wealth podcast, with Esther Szabo. Esther is a respected leader in the field of personal financial advice, with over 25 years of experience. After going through her own significant and challenging life-changing events, she overcame fear and self-doubt to launch her own successful advisory firm. Now Esther is ready to share her practical and personal experiences to help other women clear their hurdles and brave life’s transitions. In this way, she inspires women to lead fulfilling and confident lives.
Aric Johnson:
Hello, and welcome to Women and Wealth with Esther Szabo from Gates Pass Advisors. Esther, how are you?
Esther Szabo:
I’m good. Except I’m trying to press the start button on my stopwatch, because I always watch the time that we’re doing this, and it’s not responding. So I’m slightly distracted. I’m going to ignore that. And I am doing great today, even though we’re a week out from the holidays and I had a bit of an [elfin terror murmur 00:00:01:03] literally this week,
Aric Johnson:
An Elfin terror?
Esther Szabo:
Well, how is this all going to get done in time?
Aric Johnson:
Oh, gotcha.
Esther Szabo:
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but ordering online, isn’t quite as easy as it was this time last year.
Aric Johnson:
Yeah. It’s a little different, but we’re getting it done, kind of, right?
Esther Szabo:
Yeah. It’s like, I go, “Okay, that’s the one I want.” I finally decide that’s the item I want and says, “Oh, it won’t get there in time, oh we don’t have it.”
Aric Johnson:
Gotcha. All right. It’s time to get in the car and go to a store.
Esther Szabo:
I know it’s time to stop the social distance. Anyway, if that’s my biggest concern of the day I’m doing so well, because I know how many people are really struggling at this time of year. So I am glad to be here and talk with you. And I’m so excited about our guest.
Aric Johnson:
Me too. And so what I’m going to do, is I’m going to let you get back to your stopwatch while I introduce the guest. How about that?
Esther Szabo:
Okay.
Aric Johnson:
Well, actually Esther I thank you, I appreciate you letting me introduce the guest. And our guest today is Matt Schlegel of Schlegel Consulting. He is a keynote speaker, author of the book, Teamwork 9.0 and team effectiveness coach. Matt Schlegel is committed to developing highly effective style diverse teams and giving them the tools and strategies to tackle challenges that are seemingly impossible. Matt, that is a fantastic intro. I’m so excited that you’re here today.
Matt Schlegel:
Great to be here. Thanks.
Aric Johnson:
Yeah. Thank you for coming. Esther, I know that you’re going to be running the interview today. My first question for you though is, why’d you bring Matt on the show?
Esther Szabo:
Well, Matt’s book is a lot about working with teams. It’s the Enneagram that Matt is so familiar with. And a lot of what he talks about in the book are things that go hand in hand with how we work with clients in terms of financial decision-making. We’re always working with our clients about, what’s another way we can approach this? And I really want listeners to really consider, does this approach fit for me? So that they can use this information to really jumpstart a financially successful 2021, regardless of all the challenges going on in the world.
Aric Johnson:
Well, I’m excited to be part of the audience and I do want to remind the audience or let them know that, this is actually going to be a two-part podcast. Matt has that much information and Esther has got a lot of questions to ask. So please be sure to tune into the second podcast and share these with family and friends, because this is going to be great information. Esther, I’m excited to listen today.
Esther Szabo:
Great. Well, we’re going to start today. The first part is on decision-making. Even before we get into that, Matt’s going to describe the Enneagram and there are nine different personality… Well, he’ll describe, it’s not really a personality type, but hence the title of his book, Teamwork 9.0, before we completely launch. Matt, can you talk a little bit about, given your business background what engaged you with the Enneagram?
Matt Schlegel:
I came to the Enneagram the same way a lot of people do, through my family and friends. And I was introduced to it… My family was talking, they had taken a course and they were starting to talk about these different types and comparing the types. And I got curious and I ended up taking that same course that they did, so that we could have these conversations about really understanding our own Enneagram types. And as I became familiar with it, I realized, wow, this is very powerful. It can be used more broadly than just within your family. And we’ll help you get along with your workmates and help work mates work better together. And so that’s really how I brought it into my life. And then I brought it into the work I do.
Esther Szabo:
I love that where things that we bring in, in terms of our personal lives, can really map over very well to our successful work lives as well. I know that there are the nine types and we talked about this ahead because we don’t have time to go into all the nine types. But they’re also categorized a little bit differently into three areas if I understand correctly.
Matt Schlegel:
And this is one of the things, once you start to understand the Enneagram, you start to see it everywhere. Yeah, like you said, the Enneagram can be thought of, there’s nine types, but it’s three groups of three. And the three, they’re called centers, these main groups. There’s an intuitive center, there’s a feeling center, and there’s a thinking center. One of the places that I recognize the Enneagram was in the movie, Wizard of Oz. Because they have these three characters. There’s the Lion, the Tinman and the Scarecrow. So what did the Lion want? The Lion wanted courage, right? Guts.
That’s the intuitive folks. The Scarecrow, he wanted a brain. That’s the thinking type. You can see that these three centers is represented by the Enneagram, can be seen even in movies. And that’s one of the things I also love about the Enneagram is just looking at the Enneagram types as they play out in the movies, because you can see those interactions, and you get a better understanding of how these different types work together.
Esther Szabo:
Well, and you talk about this a lot in the book in terms of work groups, but again, it relates so much to how I have experience working with my clients as well. In this chapter, which is chapter two on decision-making. If you look at these different types, even under the broad areas, intuitive feeling and thinking, how might these different areas approach money and decision-making?
Matt Schlegel:
Right, right. Well, one of the things that I discovered as I was studying the Enneagram was that, the Enneagram is actually more than a personality system. The Enneagram also describes, processes and the ways that people can work together as they work through decision-making and problems. And that’s why the Enneagram is… The types are numbers, because they represent the order in which we make decisions and solve problems. To your question, as you move around through that process of each of the nine types, you’re moving through these different centers, the intuitive center, the feeling center, the thinking center. In each step of decision making or problem solving. You’re tapping into a different type of processing, I guess, for lack of a better word. Sometimes we’re processing with our intuition. Sometimes we’re processing with our feelings and sometimes we’re processing with our head or our logic, all of us do that.
Matt Schlegel:
All of us have these, sometimes we’re working on instinct, sometimes we’re working on feelings. Sometimes we’re working on logic. It’s just that each one of us has a starting point. So for instance, my starting point is in that head center, the thinking center. So I usually start off with thinking things through. Whereas, other people would start off with how they’re feeling about something and other people will just have the sense for, Oh, this is how we should proceed. And that informs all of our decisions, including our financial decisions, which I think is fascinating.
Esther Szabo:
I’m picturing some of my clients who would say, “Oh, I only approach thinking, I only approach my financials with logic. Intuition? That’s crazy, that would never be part of a financial decision. Still though, when we’re talking about the types and then there’re others who are completely, I only go by my feelings. There’s no need to think it through. They might get like, “How can you think through everything? You can’t, I’m just going to go by my feelings.” How do you address that as we’re coming to decisions, navigating decisions, how would you approach that with the Enneagram in terms of, we’re always looking at, what might get missed if we just approach it with one particular way? Like how do we expand the perspective as we’re considering options?
Matt Schlegel:
Right. Right. Well, that’s a great question. And I think the first step in that process would be to recognize that there are these three ways to process. There are these three distinct intelligences, and each one of these can inform us in a unique way. And it’s important to, if you’re going to make an important decision in your life, it’s good to get as much information as you can from all of these different intelligences. One of the things that you said that struck me was, some people will just default to their own dominant style. Like, I’m going to make decisions based on how I’m feeling or I’m going to make decisions on how I’m thinking, or I just know what to do because I just intuited it. And that is your default… Each one of us has a default mode. Being aware of that and understanding that there’s value in these other styles is, I’d say that’s the first step in and kind of opening up your understanding of how this works.
Esther Szabo:
Yeah. So just acknowledging that there are other ways, even within ourselves to look at the decisions before us and allowing that space.
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly.
Esther Szabo:
Did I get that right?
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly.
Esther Szabo:
Okay.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. You mentioned chapter two in the book and in that chapter, I do describe that process step-by-step going through making big decisions and then acting on that decision. Having a framework that you can use rather than just jumping to your own default position, actually starting from step one and moving through. That actually will allow you to kind of put yourself in the shoes of each of these intelligences, as you move through the process. And at the end of the day, whether you’re necessarily superb at a certain step or not, by at least putting yourself in those shoes for a while, you’re going to consider that decision-making style. So that’s, I think an important thing to consider the value of having a process when you’re making a big decision.
Esther Szabo:
And this is one of the reasons I brought you on, because it’s so much the same as what we do. It’s like go through a process, allow a process to be there, give it patience. Because you may uncover all sorts of things that you wouldn’t have considered that are actually, perhaps, better than had it just gone with the dominant way. I love this quote from your book in chapter two. And it says, imagine if you had not emotional baggage associated with any particular idea, imagine if your ideas weren’t influenced by what others think or how they might respond, imagine a space where you could express any idea that came to mind without inhibitions.
Esther Szabo:
And I love this because so often, whether it’s our default or how we’ve been raised in terms of our ability to think bigger, we tend to default to the thing that we’ve always done. And I know one of the things that you talked about in the book is how the brain works. It will get where in a stress state, the amygdala will process, and we just want to get to safety and safety for everyone is defined a little bit different, but it typically is going back to our default. Right?
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly. Exactly. I’m delighted that you pulled that quote out. Because, everybody has these filters. Essentially the Enneagram types are filters that get applied to us and influence how we respond to stimulus in our environments. There is one type, type three. And another way to describe type three is the suppressed feeling. So you remember that there’s the feeling types. Within the feeling types, there’s one type, is suppress feelings. So essentially you turn off that feeling filter, and that allows the three to essentially brainstorm, come up with any idea without necessarily responding emotionally to the idea, positively or negatively. But what that does is just allows you to kind of open up the whole box of ideas without any inhibition. And that is such an important part of decision-making. Right? Is to just make sure that, as you move through, decision-making you do have this rich set of ideas to work from.
Esther Szabo:
Matt, I know we’ve been talking in general about the intuitive feeling and thinking types. As I reviewed and I consider how we work with women in transition and what I’ve seen. I noticed four of the types that really stood out to me as types that I’ve seen, who’ve struggled. And one is type one, who struggle with being perfection, hard to being perfect. Now, whatever answer they give, it has to be the right answer. How have you coached the type ones to not worry so much about being perfect and letting go of that concern?
Matt Schlegel:
Yes, it is a challenge. The type one is often called the perfectionist and they are motivated to get things right. They’re in that intuition center, so their intuition is informed by this model that they’ve built up of right and wrong. This type is also characterized by a term called, internal anger. So there’s essentially an angry voice in their heads saying, “You know, that’s not right, you know it could be better, you know, you should be trying harder” Right? Because that voice is in there just constantly antagonizing them. You need to coach them beyond that and get them out of that space where all they’re doing is just listening to that voice.
Matt Schlegel:
But the first step in that is saying, you know what? It isn’t right and let’s really analyze this, kind of meet them where they’re at, really understand how they’re viewing the world, and what their perception of what’s right and wrong is. And then what I do is I say, “Okay, how should it be?” In other words, if this problem didn’t exist, then how would it be? And that gets their mind now thinking away from the problem and towards a future that doesn’t have the problem, you get them to describe that and work on that vision of visualizing the future. And that is that step away from dwelling on the problem into possibilities that will take you to some desirable outcome in the future.
Esther Szabo:
I love that, it’s like stepping away from the inner critic, and saying, okay, how would you like to see this? What would be an ideal outcome here? And just having someone just share what that is. It’s all about learning who the person is and what it is rather than getting stuck in one particular area. Another type that you had talked about, and I don’t know why I don’t have these in order.
Esther Szabo:
I think it’s just how it hit me, is type nine that really wants to eliminate conflict and say what they think others want to hear. And this is also something I’ve seen very commonly with women, with women in the financial… When, they’re speaking to a “Financial professional” they’re saying what they think I want to hear. Like, “I will save, I will not spend as much. I will be good.” Where it’s like, you know what, let’s just leave that at the door and just say exactly what you want to do here and not worry about what I think, because this is your life. How does it work for you in terms of giving assurance that they don’t have to focus on you or somebody else in their life and what they think they want them to do?
Matt Schlegel:
Right. Well, this is a challenge because the type nine is the type that really wants to eliminate any conflict in the environment. So that what’s the underlying motivator for this type and they’re looking at any relationship that they have and they’d want to minimize conflict with that. So they would want to understand what you think, Esther, and then maybe, they wouldn’t want to try to minimize any conflict with you, so that’s how they’re thinking. Essentially, guiding them through that process. What I think that you can do with the nine, is have that conversation and just make them aware that this is what your tendency is, is to want to minimize conflict, start to understand what might be the sources of conflict in their life that they may be alert to.
Matt Schlegel:
So it might be family members or other people in their life. And just try to understand that relationship that they have with that person, with all the while remembering that what that type nine is trying to do, is to minimize conflict. Even at the risk of not doing maybe the right thing for themselves personally or financially, but having those conversations can at least raise the awareness of what’s going on. In that awareness, they may be able to step outside of that desire to just eliminate the discord and say… In other words, you need to kind of get them into that thinking space and start to think about, okay, what is going to be the best outcome for me overall? And maybe that best outcome will minimize overall conflict. If you can frame it that way, all the better.
Esther Szabo:
Well, one of the things, as you’re talking about the consideration of what the tendency is, one of the tools that we use with a client, depending on… It’s kind of lengthy, and so we don’t necessarily do all of it, but is to have a client unless the client wants to, which is great, but we don’t force it on them, is to talk about their own personal money story. Where was there conflict in the family around money? What did you see around financial decision-making? Those types of things. Would that be helpful to this person to say, “Oh, this is coming out of this history and it doesn’t necessarily have to influence my present as much as perhaps it is”
Matt Schlegel:
Speaking of the type nine specifically here. I think the type nine tends to be looking more forward than backwards. They’re anticipating possible conflicts. Now, maybe that money story that’s… Whatever happened in their life, will make them more alert to possible conflicts in the future that match up with maybe what happened in the past, repeating the same patterns. In as much as you can prevent repeating past mistakes, and get them to be aware that this… Because this happened, you might be alert to this, or maybe overly alert to this unnecessarily. That might be a good conversation to have with them, bringing them back again into that thinking space.
Esther Szabo:
Yeah. And for anyone listening, these are good things just to reflect on for yourself. That’s one of my goals here is that to think, Oh, do I do that? Do I tend to be really motivated by eliminating conflict around and worrying what others are thinking? Another one, type five is something else I see frequently, this internal anxiety, the fear of being considered foolish. I also think that’s why when I was talking about it with my trainer earlier this week, I said, “You know, you seem to have more female clients.” And he goes, “Yeah, men tend to not want to be trained as much.” They don’t want to follow, get suggestions, follow directions as much.
Esther Szabo:
And I wonder if what I’ve experienced with… I have male clients as well, but often the men have this thing, like, well, “I’m only here for a second opinion because I pretty much have this together.” I do wonder if that’s the fear of being considered foolish because somehow the men are supposed to know how all the money works. It’s actually a kind of a complicated topic. It can be simplified, but there’re so many things to consider. I don’t know if you see, in how you’re working with, how does the type five exhibit itself on ways to address that fear of being considered foolish?
Matt Schlegel:
So working with type fives, they do… That is one of the underlying concerns they have, is they don’t want to appear foolish. So they want to really understand all the issues. They want to collect as much information as possible. They’re constantly driven by that in order to avoid appearing foolish or avoid making mistakes. That to them is the least desirable outcome. And that fear also makes it hard for them to make decisions and take action. You often see fives in partnership with people who aren’t the type five, because in that relationship and in that interaction, they can essentially place that responsibility of making the decision on somebody else.
Esther Szabo:
Interesting.
Matt Schlegel:
And by placing the responsibility on somebody else, now they’re relieved because if it does go wrong, it wasn’t them. So I do see that with fives and I could appreciate why you may have five clients because they would welcome somebody with your expertise to help make that decision and relieve them of that burden.
Esther Szabo:
Interesting. And then the last one I want to cover is type six. Because I relate to this, even though I’m not a type six, I don’t think what the Enneagram. This way of dealing with suppressed anxiety by setting up systems, planning, budgeting, et cetera. It’s one of the reason when I first was introduced through the means of an elective in college, whenever that was, 30 years ago to financial planning. And I was like, “Oh my gosh, there’s a system and a way to do this?” It was like, “Wow, what a light bulb moment that was” it really addressed my anxiety from growing up in a financially tumultuous home. Like, okay, I can set this up. And, I’m just telling on myself that, that I relate to a lot. Where can that limit people in terms of their decision-making? That is if it’s a type six, one, two, three, that’s part of the feeling.
Matt Schlegel:
Actually type six is in the thinking center. It is the-
Esther Szabo:
It is?
Matt Schlegel:
Yes.
Esther Szabo:
Okay.
Matt Schlegel:
So five, six and seven are the thinking center. And the issue with each of these in the thinking center is anxiety. All of them are processing anxiety. So we talked about the five, not wanting to … The anxiety of looking foolish or making mistake. Well for the six, it’s suppressed anxiety. And I know this type well, because I am a six. So the… Right, yeah. I speak with expertise in this one.
Matt Schlegel:
So the way that we deal with our anxiety is, if we know what’s going to happen, then our anxiety goes down, right? Now, it’s hard to know what’s going to happen. So you can imagine sixes live with quite a bit of anxiety, because there is uncertainty in the world and we’re dealing with this uncertain future. And we’re managing that as best as we can. And the way that we do that is if we can put together systems that help us manage outcomes in the future, then our anxiety goes down. So that’s probably what you were relating to earlier, especially in the financial world, there’s a lot of systems in place, right? Because you know, necessarily you want to have predictability in the financial world as much as possible within the bounds of reality.
Matt Schlegel:
Those types of systems would very much appeal to a type six. I think you, as a financial expert coming in and working with type six clients and laying out, okay, this is how we’re going to manage the money. These are the different allocations. This is why we’re doing it. These are what the typical outcomes are. All of that information is very appealing to the six. And in as much as you’re implementing that and then monitoring it and giving them feedback so that they can see things are tracking like expected, sixes will love that.
Esther Szabo:
Well, if you want to talk about an engagement.
Matt Schlegel:
Right. I see I’ll just make a note here.
Esther Szabo:
We can discuss a proposal.
Matt Schlegel:
Yes.
Esther Szabo:
As we close out. Because, we’re pretty close to time here. You close this chapter on decision-making with implementation celebration and integration. And I love this too, because always when we’re working through decisions, whether it’s… What are the decisions before us? My husband just passed away. What do I do? There are decisions to be made. And then the following year, it’s a different picture. Or I just received this incredible amount of executive compensation. What do I do? There is an implementation approach. There is celebration of making it this far. And then it’s integrating, which is an ongoing thing for all of us. It’s an ongoing process for all of us.
Esther Szabo:
And especially often what we’re dealing with is, as you talked about on page 90, not only has this change been emotionally unsettling, there also may be unforeseen issues impeding, and it’s important to capture these issues, address the concerns and ensure manageability. Like you said, Matt, it’s not like we can predict the future planning and management is not about… We predict trends, so to speak, but we can’t predict exact. So how do you work with someone on their ongoing process of integration given the different… I won’t say, how do you work with them? I would just say, can you share some thoughts on integration given the Enneagram?
Matt Schlegel:
First of all, I am so delighted and flattered that you read the book so carefully. I really appreciate that. And yes, one of the powerful aspects of the Enneagram, if you look at that diagram, that that is the Enneagram, it’s a circle. And the reason why it’s a circle, it goes from one to nine and then back to one it’s because life is this continual process. It never stops, you keep going around and around. And so as you work through all of these dynamics of problem-solving and decision-making, you do get back to. Hey, we are now in a different place and in a different time and with a different situation that may have new issues, we just need to work through that again. And so, one of the things that I really love about the Enneagram is, it describes continual improvement.
Matt Schlegel:
You can look at this and I’m sure you do this with all your clients. You have periodic check-ins with all of your clients. You take a snapshot of what’s going on in their life. What’s going on in the financial world, are there new issues? And then you start to work through those new issues all the way through to integration, where you assure that whatever actions that you took do meet the objectives that you set out to solve. So once you’ve done that and you’ve worked through the circle, that’s a good time to then check in again and just say, where are we now? And is it time to move around once again.
Esther Szabo:
Matt, I just want to thank you so much for all that you’ve shared with us today. You have such a rich background in this topic, both on the personal side and on business side. And we have a lot of very professional business women in the firm, as well as those navigating all sorts of different personal transitions. So thank you. Today, our focus has been on decision-making, what different Enneagram types, how they can support, and also sort of, if you will, a shadow side that can hinder decision-making and how to move through decisions. The next one we’re going to be addressing area is, creativity. So I hope everyone will join us for that. And Matt, can you tell us how, if people wanted to reach you, what types of services you offer to help people engage more with their Enneagram?
Matt Schlegel:
Well, thank you so much, Esther, for the opportunity to speak with you and your audience today, it’s been such a delight. The best way to get in touch with me is through my website, which is evolutionaryteams.com. And on that, you can find a number of our services and workshops, and in this virtual world, we’ve now virtualized all of our offerings, so we can do virtual workshops. And then I also have a blog where I’m, writing about different aspects of the Enneagram and how to use it both in your personal life and with teams. So I welcome your audience to check that out as well.
Esther Szabo:
Thank you so much, Matt. And next time we Will be talking about the Enneagram with creativity. So please join us for that. If you would like to get in touch with me, you can go to our website gatespassadvisors.com and select the contact button. So thank you again, Matt. So much. We will continue in a couple of weeks.
Aric Johnson:
Esther, this was fantastic, Matt, thank you so much for being here. I’m such a geek for this stuff, so I’m definitely tuning in the next time. And of course listening audience, we thank you for joining us and listening to the Women and Wealth podcast with Esther Szabo. If you have not subscribed to the podcast yet, please click the subscribe now button below. This way, when Esther comes out with a new podcast, it’ll show up directly on your listening device. This makes it much easier to share these podcasts with your friends and family. Again, thank you so much for listening today. For everyone at Gates Pass Advisors. This is Aric Johnson reminding you to live your best day every day. And we’ll see you next time.
Thank you for listening to the Women and Wealth podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast. So you receive notifications of new podcasts as they become available. Check out the website at www.gatespassadivisors.com for more information. This content is developed from sources believed to be providing accurate information. The information in this material is not intended as tax or legal advice. Please consult legal or tax professionals for specific information regarding your individual situation. The opinions expressed and material provided are for general information and should not be considered a solicitation for the purchase or sale of any security.
