Podcast

Honored to be on Josh Elledge’s The Thoughtful Entrepreneur podcast. Josh is an Enneagram Type 7 so we quickly dive deep into personality type and team dynamics. Speaking of dynamics, Josh is a very dynamic Type 7. Josh solves the problem of B2B sales and has a novel approach to providing an endless stream of high-ticket qualified customers using the Go Giver approach to building strong relationships.

Josh is founder of UpMyInfluence.com and Chief Executive Angel at Savings Angel.

Check out all Josh’s podcasts:

The SavingsAngel Show

Authority Confidential

Thoughtful Entrepreneur

#Team #Leader #Leadership #Enneagram #B2BSales #Entrepreneurship #HighTicketSales #HighTicketSales #Podcast

[Video Transcript]

Josh Elledge:                      With us right now, it’s Matt Schlegel. Matt, you are the author of the book, Teamwork 9.0, you’re a consultant, author and speaker and you are the principal with Schlegel Consulting and you’re found on the web at evolutionaryteams.com. Matt, thank you so much for joining us.

Matt Schlegel:                   It’s so great to be with you here today, Josh. Thank you.

Josh Elledge:                      I should say that we’re about 11 minutes into our conversation by the time we finally hit record, because we started talking about the Enneagram, which is one construct that you use in your work.

I saw that and I’m like, oh, I’m a seven, my wife is a six and we started talking about that, but we’re going to get to that for sure.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Josh Elledge:                      Please give us an overview of your work, who you work with and the impact that you have.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Well thank you. My background is in engineering product development and I’ve always been focused on getting my teams to be more effective. So along the way, I’m always looking for great new tools to use, to keep the team working together, keep them aligned and moving forward.

And along the way I found this really fascinating tool called the Enneagram and I started using it with my team and it was stunning how effective it was at helping the team members understand each other, resolve conflicts, understand perspectives, improve communication.

And then, I also realized that the Enneagram has numbers for the types, not colors or letters or animals. It’s numbers. Why is it numbers? And I found out that the there’s a reason why they’re numbers and the numbers are in the order in which each of those personality dynamics come into play in problem solving.

So for instance type one is the one say, “Hey, that’s not right, shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this.”

Well, what’s the first step in problem solving. It’s like, hey, there’s a problem, it shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this. And all the way around.

So I became faceted with the Enneagram in that way, developed a problem-solving methodology, used that with my teams. It was amazing with that. And then I founded my company to just do consulting in that world. And I wrote a book Teamwork 9.0, which you gratefully mentioned.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   And it describes how you can use the Enneagram in this novel way. So yes, it’s a fantastic personality system, but it’s also a very powerful problem-solving system that gets teams aligned around solving big, challenging problems.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Tell me about the book and who the book is for. Teamwork 9.0, you could get it right now on Amazon. Mostly I’m curious about, what is the transformation that takes place in the reader when they consume and apply the content.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. I would say, broadly speaking, the audience for the book is leaders of teams. Anybody who is leading a team will benefit from reading the book, knowing the Enneagram, applying both the personality side of it, to understanding the team dynamics at a personality level, but then understanding all the challenges the team has as they’re moving through the problem-solving process towards their goal.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. And overall, if you were to go through the structure of… I understand who it’s written for, but what would you say would be some of the high level headlines of, if you really want to succeed with teams today… I hate to ask you to do this, but boil it down. Your entire book, your life’s learning, into a couple of principles. Sorry. That’s so unfair.

Matt Schlegel:                   No, no. What happens to teams is that we often, as leaders, tend to hire people like ourselves, who think the same way. And when we do that, then we will create a team that is imbalanced and will have some blind spots. You may even be unaware of the blind spots, because you don’t have all the perspectives and you end up getting into these situations and we have all of these affirmisms for analysis by paralysis, right?

If you have a team that’s just mostly fives, all they’re going to do be doing is analyzing things and not moving forward. So this book helps leaders understand how teams get stuck and then helps them get unstuck and moving towards their goal. That is the bottom line is, I’m trying to make teams as effective as they can be.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. How do you work professionally then, as a consultancy? Who are you typically working with and what does engagement look like?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. I will engage with my clients in a number of different ways. Some clients just want to learn the Enneagram. A leader will say, “I have this team, I want to understand my team better. I want them to understand me better. I want them to understand each other better.”

And then, I will do an Enneagram workshop with them in order to help everybody understand their perspectives. And then I’ll also overlay and share that framework of problem solving with the team. I’ll say, “Well, I’m looking at your team. You’ve got a few eights and you’ve got a few twos and you’ve got a few fives, but you’re probably challenged in this way.”

I can know how the team will be challenged based on the mix of the teams. And when I show them the problem solving process, then they’ll start to realize, oh yeah, that’s why we get stuck here, and maybe we need to one, just appreciate that and step into that role ourselves or maybe we bring in somebody to fill that role for us so that we don’t get stuck there like we always do.

So just to help the team understand those team dynamics that are going on when they’re working together.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. So there are different modalities. I’m using a big word like I know what I’m talking about. There are different ways that you can say, well, I am a… And people will list out, so Enneagram. I tend to like that over… What’s that another one that’s like E F and M?

Matt Schlegel:                   Myers-Briggs.

Josh Elledge:                      Myers-Briggs were very popular. Yeah. What is it about Enneagram that is resourceful for you in a way that maybe the other ones aren’t?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Well for me Myers-Briggs seems unnecessarily complicated. It’s a little harder for me to intuitively grasp. That was one problem I had with it.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Me too.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. And then the other problem I had with it is that it really doesn’t speak to dynamicism. I know intuitively that my behaviors change based on my stress levels, if I’m relaxed or I’m stressed, and I know these changes are happening and that Myers-Briggs doesn’t necessarily speak to that.

Whereas the Enneagram, just built into it, is all these dynamics, right? If you look at the Enneagram diagram, one it’s a circle, and then there’s all these lines in the middle. And every point on the circle, every number, is connected to two other numbers. And those are your stress and unstress lines.

So when you’re stressed, you tend to move in one direction and when you are unstressed, you tend to move in another direction. So you can see, oh, that’s why I start to behave this way when I’m stressed. For instance, for me, I’m a six. The head group, which the six is at the core of, the dominant driver to behaviors is anxiety.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   And six is-

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. I’m married to a six and I agree.

Matt Schlegel:                   Six is, what we do is we tend to suppress our anxiety, but it comes up when things aren’t going the way we expect. And when they do, that anxiety starts to rise in us. And then our behaviors start to look more like the type three.

Now the type three is called the achiever. They’re really highly productive, and they’re just wanting to get stuff done. And I realize I do this. When I start to get stressed, I start making lists and I start checking stuff off. And as I’m doing that, my anxiety’s going down. After I get all that stuff done, and I’m addressing all the things that are causing me anxiety, then I can relax again.

But during that phase, I was like looking and behaving more like a three. And when I can get to that point where, ah, I’m on vacation, I’m not worried about anything. Then I can look like that nice, relaxed nine. I can get a good night’s sleep and all that.

So just those dynamics fascinated me and then understanding how each type has a unique set of dynamics is amazing power in that system that really appealed to me.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. What happens when a seven gets stressed?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Well, when the seven gets stressed, they move to type one. They can get very particular about things and start to nitpick on things and go down that path.

Josh Elledge:                      Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes. The one is perfectionist, right?

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   So they’re striving to get it right. But when the seven, their anxiety comes up, it’s because they’re not able to seek fun relationships.

Josh Elledge:                      Yes.

Matt Schlegel:                   And things aren’t going the way they want them to do, so they start to nitpick on things. Does that sound familiar?

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, okay, variety and stuff, that’s all well and good when times are good, but right now, I need to get my life in order.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Josh Elledge:                      Or, oh, heaven forbid, there would maybe be a situation in business or with a team. I like to break things down to their simplest elements and like, let’s address the emotions, let’s address this. And it does, it feels… I feel organized, I feel like I’m being responsible. Let’s lay out all the cards out on the table.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Josh Elledge:                      But yes, this is the standard for this, this is the way it should be and so forth.

Matt Schlegel:                   You used such a good word there is, putting things in order, because that is a very one activity, putting things in order. Organizing their shelves, organizing the dishes in the rack. Everything needs to be in order.

Josh Elledge:                      Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   That’s a great word.

Josh Elledge:                      I just chalked it up to the monk in me that occasionally comes out.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes.

Josh Elledge:                      Like my toothpaste, for example, does need to be rolled a certain way. Yeah. Okay. This is really applicable for our teams. How do we use this?

For example, if I know my director of operations, she’s a one. She’s the perfectionist, she is absolutely the order in all things and she is perfect for her role.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes.

Josh Elledge:                      If anything gets by her, it’s very infrequent and I could tell she’s really disappointed if something does get past her.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. When I was looking for an editor for my book, I wanted to hire a one.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   I started just interviewing editors and talking to them about the book. And until I came across an editor that says, oh, I love the Enneagram. I’m a type one. I’m like, yes, because you’re exactly right.

Here’s the other thing, Josh, and I talk about this in the book, on work teams. What people come together to form effective work teams?

And there’re groups of three. In Enneagram [inaudible 00:14:28] we call them triads, but groups of three that do come together and one of the groups is the one, the seven and the four. That one-seven combination is really powerful and it’s a very complimentary combination.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Okay. So someone’s listening to our conversation and they’re like, this is great. Are you working long term with people? Do you work on a workshop basis? How does that usually look?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. There’re two different models. One, I mentioned just do the workshop, but the other is, and this is what I love to do as well is, work with a team that has a big challenge and help that team work through the challenge. In other words, take them through that nine-step Enneagram problem solving process and get the team to solve the big challenge.

I describe it like, when you need to work on the system, rather than just in the system. I tend to work with say a cross-functional team of leaders. For instance, if you are wanting to improve your product development process, or you want to reduce product returns, or you want to come up with creative ways to solve a supply chain issue, or how to bring people back into the office. It’s something big that you as an organization need to do, but it’s not your main business necessarily, right?

It’s not what you do every day. You need to stand back and look big picture and get your team aligned to come together, to solve the problem and develop a new way of working together, that’s more effective than you’re doing now.

So then I take a team of cross-functional leaders. I like somebody from operations, from engineering, from finance, from IT, one of everybody, a leader in that group, and get them to work together and collaborate on what their ideal way of working together would be like, once that big challenge was solved and get them to visualize that.

And then get them to work together, come up with creative ideas and then implement those ideas to solve the problem. And I can do that with a team, just stepping them through the process. And it’s such fascinating work to see teams come together around solving problems that they often don’t even think they can solve.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Your website, evolutionaryteams.com. Someone goes there, what should they click on? What do they do?

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. You can send me an email, give me a call. If you have a question and you want to learn more, you can always contact me. I have a blog where I talk about a lot of these concepts. Definitely reach out to me if there’s something on your mind that you want to explore.

Also, if you’re just interested in the Enneagram, I do have a complimentary Enneagram assessment on the website. So feel free to take that and use that to start to explore your Enneagram type.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Terrific. Awesome. All right. Matt Schlegel, your book, I want to promote that. I just had it on the other page. Oh, Teamwork 9.0, that’s on Amazon. And of course your website, evolutionaryteams.com. Matt Schlegel, thank you so much for joining us.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thank you, Josh. It’s been great speaking with you.

Honored to be a guest on Amy A. Fairchild’s  podcast, The Encourage Project. We discuss the Enneagram as a tool for self-discovery and interpersonal dynamics. Amy is highly Enneagram aware, so we dive deep into the conversation. So much fun!

Find Amy here:

Instagram – @the_encourage_project

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-a-fairchild-pmp-03b7022/

Find the podcast here:

Podcast:  https://the-encourage-project-with-amy-a-fairchild.simplecast.com/episodes/067-enneagram-human-projects

[Transcript]

Amy A. Fairchild:               Welcome, welcome to the Encourage Project. I’m Amy Fairchild, and I’m finally healthy. I am 100%, if you cannot tell by my voice. And I’m so happy that you’re here. I’m really happy I’m here. I’m so happy I’m here. And I just want to say, you’re exactly where you are meant to be, for I’m exactly where I’m meant to be too. So, it’s all good. Thank you for being part of this time together.

In our last episode, we wrapped up the three-part series on the Human Project framework, plan, act, reflect. And as you work your way through those pieces of the framework, let us know what resonates for you. Send us your ahas, oh nos, and yippies. And we’re going to continue supporting that framework over the next few episodes.

In each of the episodes around the framework, plan, act, reflect, I talked about practices that I have found helpful in my own journey and through my own human project’s mindset, shifts, rituals, habits, things that I’ve implemented along the way. And I’ve gotten some questions about how those things, and more importantly, how I found them are working for me.

And the answer to that is twofold. When I decided to really invest conscious effort into the things that I want to do and achieve in this lifetime, I really had to look at myself first. So, I first invested time and learning more about me, how do I work? How do I interact with others? How do I prefer to learn? I learned things about my energy and what makes me really excited, and what makes me want to lean in to certain activities.

And then, after I learned about myself, I just got curious and started experimenting. I explored different physical activities and practices. I explored different meditation and reflection approaches like journaling, you guys have heard me talk about journaling lots of times. And throughout my life, interestingly, I’ve always been curious about approaches that provide possible insights into who I am.

Things like personality assessments, and human design. I’m a huge, huge supporter and fan of human design. And it’s through all of that exploration, that I’ve put together what works for me, how I best support myself through my own human projects. And if you want to chat more about that in detail, send me a message. But that’s not what we’re going to talk about today.

Like I said, for the next few episodes, we’re really going to focus on sharing various approaches, modalities, systems, assessments, those kinds of things to hopefully inspire your curiosity, and to help you discover more about who you are and how you show up in the world. And more important than that, help you design a self-support system that helps you shine your very, very brightest in every human project you take on.

So, let’s talk about today’s guest. He studied and applied a psychological instrument to solve team-based and project management problems. Now, that may sound very technical in all the things, but I promise you, it’s super interesting and easily applicable, and I can’t wait to talk to him more.

Matt Schlegel began studying the Enneagram in 2002. And he actually, went on to start applying it in corporate settings. So, we’re going to talk more about that today. I’d like to introduce the encouraged project community to Matt Schlegel, welcome.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thank you so much for having me here today, Amy.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I’m just so glad you’re here. I always ask people when we first get started to tell us a little about yourself, because people want to know about you, dogs, where you live, all that kind of stuff. Tell us a little bit about you.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. So, I’m a native Californian, born and raised here. I am mostly in the San Francisco Bay Area. I am living here now in Palo Alto with my wife, and I have three kids. Two are already graduated, and one is still in college. And he’s attending a local college here and living with us. So, we’re not empty nesters and we’re enjoying every minute of not being empty nesters because we love our kids.

And then, we do have a dog. Our dog is a Chiweenie probably, the cutest dog on the planet. And she’s 14 years old now, but curiously, she has Addison’s disease. And I don’t know if you know about that. But…

Amy A. Fairchild:               No.

Matt Schlegel:                   … really, it’s the same disease that JFK had. And it slows down your aging.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, wow.

Matt Schlegel:                   So, she’s 14 years old, but she’s still very spry for a 14-year-old Chiweenie. So, we love our little dog. And yeah, it’s very nice.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, wow. I had no idea that dogs could get the same types of disease as humans. I mean, that makes sense to me, but I’d never actually heard of that.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah. And apparently, it’s not uncommon. The doctor recognized it right away, “Oh, she has Addison’s disease.” At some point in her life, she just came in, it was just really the lethargic and sluggish. And it was because she didn’t have the right hormones in her and we just started giving her hormone shots and perked it right up.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Holy smokes.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Okay, so I have to ask the question, because I’ve never even heard of a Chiweenie, what exactly is a Chiweenie dog?

Matt Schlegel:                   Chihuahua and dachshund.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, my word.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Amy A. Fairchild:               So, she’s a little teeny tiny dog?

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, she’s 14 pounds.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, my goodness. Wow.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes.

Amy A. Fairchild:               What’s her name?

Matt Schlegel:                   Happy.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Happy. Well, there you go. What a perfect name for a little baby dog. I love that. But that makes me happy, priceless.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. We fell in love with her, right? She’s a rescue. We fell in love with her right away. So, and she was already named Happy. So, we’d say, “Oh, that’s perfect.”

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, wow, what a sign. I love that. I love that so much. I could probably talk about that for an hour. But…

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Let’s dive into…

Matt Schlegel:                   Everybody loves Happy.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I know, right. So, let’s dive into Enneagram. For those who don’t know what that even is, tell us what Enneagram is.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. So, I started my career as an engineer. And I was asked to become a manager. And I didn’t know anything about managing people. I only know about managing electrons. And so, but I took that to heart and I say, “Okay, let’s figure out what tools do I need to understand to help me better get teams and people to be their best?” And as you go on that journey, you’ll come across systems like StrengthsFinder, and DiSC, and Myers-Briggs.

And along that journey, I came across this thing called the Enneagram. And I’m like, “Oh, okay, it’s another one of these personality systems.” And by the time I came to the Enneagram, I had explored the other systems and my engineering brain takes them apart and put them together, and I’m like, “Oh, it’s good for this, it’s not good for that.” But the Enneagram fascinated me, because no matter how much I took it apart, there was always something more to learn. It was just deep, deep, deep, deep.

And that end, it was just so accurate because it really spoke to your underlying motivations, and really explained what gets people up in the morning to be their best selves. And so, and starting with myself, I learned more about myself in understanding the Enneagram than any of the other systems.

And so, that’s really, what the Enneagram is about in my opinion. It’s a tool, first and foremost, for really understanding what makes you tick, but then what makes other people tick, and then also, how all of those dynamics work together to be great teams and effective at solving big problems.

Amy A. Fairchild:               So, is the Enneagram, is it a test? Is it a survey? What is it? I know it explains a system overall, in terms of what’s application.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               What is the starting point for someone? What do they do to even get into being able to play it? What’s the first thing people do?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. So, the first thing, so what is it? So, what it describes is, essentially… So, Amy, are you right-handed or left-handed?

Amy A. Fairchild:               Right-handed.

Matt Schlegel:                   Okay. Now, some people are left-handed, right? And some people are ambidextrous.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yes.

Matt Schlegel:                   And just because you’re right-handed, it doesn’t mean you don’t have a left hand.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Right.

Matt Schlegel:                   And it doesn’t mean, you don’t use your left hand all the time, right? And so, but you now are aware of your handedness. And that’s the way I look at the Enneagram, is it’s essentially your personal dynamic handedness. And there are nine different styles that it describes. And we tend to have a dominant style, kind of our starting point, just like I start using my right hand.

And so, each of us starts in a certain style, but then we have access to the other styles. And depending on our starting point, we have more or less ease of access to those other styles. And as you understand the Enneagram more, then you can develop access to the other styles when you need to access them.

And so, it’s just like learning an instrument. If you’re learning the guitar, you have to learn how to use your right hand to pick it, and you have to use your left hand to do the fingerboard, right? And you get to get your hands working in concert, so that they all work together. So, I don’t know, that’s my metaphor for describing what the Enneagram is.

Amy A. Fairchild:               So, I mean, even at a more tactical level, how does a person know what style they are? Do they take a test? How do I know? I know, I’m an eight.

Matt Schlegel:                   Okay.

Amy A. Fairchild:               How would I know that?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. So, there are tests out there. And there is a test on my website, which it’s complimentary. I mean, anybody is free to use it. But I always caution people because I’m a six, and I’m cautious. So, I caution people that when you take the test, you’re going to just answer a bunch of questions, and then it’s going to share with you what your highest scoring types on. And usually, of the nine, you score highly on two or three types.

So, for instance, I know I’m a six, but the first time I took the test, my highest scoring type was eight, because I was in an environment where eight behaviors were encouraged. And I just had to be an eight all the time where I was. And so, as you’re going through, do I this? Yes. Do I do this? Yes. Do I do? Right? You’re just taking it off because I’m behaving like the environment is inducing me to behave.

But then, once you have those top two or three high scoring types, then you need to go through this process of a little bit of introspection. So, you read about the different styles, you read about of those two or three styles, what is important to those? And then, you start to figure out, “Oh, okay. Well, I do tend to be more cautious, and I do tend to think about the future.” And that sounds more like a six than an eight. So, maybe I’m a six.

And then, you just try that on for size and just see how it feels. And then, you come to it. So, that’s one way to do it by yourself, or you can just ask somebody who’s close to you and say, “Which of these two am I?” And they’ll look at it and say, “Oh, you’re this one?”

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yeah, I like that. I mean, there are a couple of things that you mentioned, that I think are really important to call out. The first is, that there is an assessment that a person can take to get an initial identification of what style they might have. And to your point, you can find them anywhere, but I’m sure yours is well vetted, and well-thought the one on your website. So, I would definitely send people there if they want to learn more.

I think the second thing that I want to make sure people catch is that, if I understood you correctly, your results can be influenced by environment. So, it’s just the same as the Myers-Briggs, although my Myers-Briggs has been exactly the same over time, which is very interesting. I am an INTJ. But the DiSC profile for example, for me, I’ve taken several times in my career and it changed because of environment.

So, I think it is important to let people know that if you decide to explore this insight tool, if you will, to help become better at your human projects, or interacting with vetters, or whatever. To keep in mind, like you said, it can be influenced by environment.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I love that you said too, “If in doubt, ask someone who’s around you all the time. Because often, people who are not close to circle, we are our most authentic selves with. And so, if in doubt, ask someone who knows you, I really like that. And not a lot of, at least in my experience, not a lot of those assessments give you that additional insight that says, “Hey, if you don’t really know for sure, go ask your buddy or your partner, or your best friend or whatever.” So, I love that you said that.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah.

Amy A. Fairchild:               So, if a person knows, like, I’ve taken the assessment, I’m taking a couple of times, because I was curious because I wanted to see if it would be the same over time for me. And the reason is, for me, I’ve worked very, very diligently over the last few years to try to show up as my most authentic self in every context, in every environment.

And so, I was curious to see if the Enneagram as an example, would over time, demonstrate the same feedback I expected it to. And it actually, did for me, because I’ve done some of that work. So, I’m an eighth, which is I understand is more assertive, or more focused, or you obviously can explain it better than I.

Matt Schlegel:                   Sure.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And it was interesting to learn that because I already knew it about myself. But what was more interesting was to understand how it might interact with other types. So, talk more specifically about how understanding who you are from an Enneagram perspective might help you in specific interactions with others.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. So, and by the way, did you see Amy Poehler on Seth Meyers show the other day?

Amy A. Fairchild:               No, I didn’t.

Matt Schlegel:                   They talked about the Enneagram.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Really?

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, Amy Poehler had a birthday party, and she invited some of her friends over and they all studied the Enneagram. And then, before coming on the show with Seth, then Amy had Seth take the test as well. And they figured out what his style was. So, it turns out, Amy Poehler is an eighth.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   And Seth Meyers is a three. And so, we got to see them interact as a three and eight, and talk about that. So, just as an aside…

Amy A. Fairchild:               Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah. So, it’s fascinating. So, yeah, each type brings a certain dynamic to team, or to a group, or to a family. And as you understand your own type, you’ll start to see how that dynamic, influences those around you, and how those around you are interacting with your dynamic and bringing their dynamic to the situation.

So, that’s one of the great things about the Enneagram is that, it really provides a framework for understanding these interactions and dynamics. And it’s fascinatingly accurate. And one of the things that I came across as I was first studying the Enneagram, there’s a great website called Enneagram Institute.

And buried in there, it says, “Well, if you’re a type X, and you’re married to a type Y, then click here to find out what the dynamics are.” And by that time, I had figured out my style, and I’d figured out my lifestyle. And I went in there, and I read it, and I’m like, “How do they know was?” It was so spot on.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Wow.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, so, and another, just to follow up on another thing that you said was, and one of the things I really like about the Enneagram is that, whereas the other systems tend to be somewhat static, the Enneagram has dynamics built into it. And if you look at the Enneagram diagram, it’s a circle with a bunch of lines in the middle. And each point on that circle, each number is connected to two other numbers. And those lines are called your path of security and insecurity. And so, when you’re in your secure state, you start to look like another number.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   And when you’re in your insecure state, you start to look like the number in opposite direction. So, for me as a six, my secure state looks like the nine. And my insecure state looks like the three. And so, and we can talk about the different dynamics. But I’ll say that for the six, the underlying issue as it is with all of the people in the head group the five, six, seven is anxiety.

And so, I’m essentially processing my anxiety. And so, when my anxiety starts to come up in my insecure state, I get very focused, starting to make to do lists and getting stuff done, and really focused and not paying attention to stuff around me, because I need to get this stuff done in order to get my anxiety to go down. That dynamic looks a lot like a type three dynamic.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. And then, as my anxiety levels go down, then that filter of anxiety is lifted, that fog is lifted, and I can look around and I can see other people and what’s going on. And I start to get this much broader perspective of everything around me, and start to just more connect with everybody around me. And that looks like the type nine behavior.

And so, one of the great things about the Enneagram is, it actually gives us a path to what does my healthy self look like? How am I behaving in my healthiest self? And if you focus on that and build muscle in moving towards your healthiest self, one, it allows you access to that. But also, I find that once you’re accessing your healthiest self, you have better access to all the different styles as you need them.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I love that you speak or you speak, you spoke specifically about essentially awareness. I mean, once you had awareness that when you’re in this certain situation, you tend to have these behaviors, at least for me, awareness gives me that moment of objectivity where I can go, “Okay, something’s not right, because I’m behaving this way. My past and indications tell me it’s because of this, how can I adjust?” What a powerful thing to simply have awareness.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And I think, that is the essential power of a lot of these tools, depending on what resonates with you. But certainly, Enneagram as an example, having awareness of what my healthy state is, as you said, and what my less than healthy in my optimum over healthy states might be, if you will. And it’s incredible awareness to be able to develop objectivity.

And that’s one of the things I’ve talked about in human projects is, let’s say you’re building a house that your human project, and you’re having anxiety or frustration around the builder being late with the sheetrock, knowing that you perhaps react a certain way in this situations can not only help you maintain sanity, but also helps your interactions with the builder, so that you’re not inadvertently putting all of your junk on the builder and getting them spun up when it could really have a civilized conversation.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, exactly.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Fascinating, fascinating.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes.

Amy A. Fairchild:               One of the things that I’ve really tuned into with Enneagram in other styles is, the extent to which other styles want to be what I would call seen and heard publicly versus not as an example, in team meetings. So, as an eight, I tend to be very direct. I tend to make decisions quickly in a group. And I tend to be a fairly decent leader, like, “Okay, we’re going in this direction, let’s go.” And the unknown doesn’t freak me out. I’m like, “I don’t know. But we’re going to go and we’re going to get there.”

And people who don’t communicate that way I’ve learned, either won’t speak up, or they’ll speak up afterward, or they’ll just kind of tune out altogether. And so, one of the things I learned as a result is, I specifically engage every person in the conversation when I’m leading a meeting as an example.

And if maybe, they don’t want to speak up in the meeting, I’ll say, “Put it in the chat,” or I’ll say, “Send me a note afterward,” or I’ll say, “Send me a text while we’re talking.”

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Talk a little bit about how people can get to a place like that, knowing Enneagram. What are some other examples where people can use that information to help themselves and others around them?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. So, you brought up just a great example. And it’s a pretty common situation for type eight leaders. So, there’s three groups, right? There’s the instinctual group, which is the eight, nine, one. There’s the feeling group, which is the two, three, four.

And then, like I said before, the five, six, seven is in the anxiety group, or the head group. And so, each one of those types has a different starting point. And you can almost think of it as the Wizard of Oz, you remember? The Lion wants guts.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yes.

Matt Schlegel:                   So, that’s the instinctive group. The Tin Man wants a heart, so that’s the feeling group. And then, the Scarecrow wants a brain, that’s the head group. And that an underlying issue, each one of these has an underlying issue that is driving them.

And so, and the other beautiful thing about the Wizard of Oz, I’m just a little sidetrack here is that, we all have these inside of us. And so, Dorothy essentially represents our consciousness. And she is going through life, going through her journey, following her yellow brick road, being counseled by these three intelligences. Our gut intelligence, our feeling intelligence, in our head intelligence.

And all of us, all four of us, each of us has all four of these intelligences in us, and we’re all on our journey. So, Wizard of Oz is just a great metaphor for what’s that dynamic is. But just get back to that example that you said, for type eights, they’re in the instinctive group.

So, that when I say instinctive, they already know what to do. Their instincts already inform them what to do. They don’t have to think about things. For me, it’s like, you wake up in the morning, you’re taking a shower, and all of a sudden, “Oh, I got to do this.” It just comes to your brain, you never even thought about it. You’re just like, “Oh, I got to do this.” That’s not me all the time, but it’s the way eights are all the time. It’s like, I know what to do.

And the problem is, the rest of us aren’t there. And so, the eighth leader who already knows what to do, just has the inclination to want to get to action, and say, “Well, let’s just do this, let’s go.” While the rest of us are going, “Okay, really?” And so, what we learn is that, is to just not say anything to eight. It’s just like, they’re going to tell us what to do. So, let’s just wait until they tell us what to do. And we’ll do it.

And so, type eight leaders that I’ve coached, who, when they complain about this to me, it’s like, “Why don’t they ever take any initiative? Why don’t they think for themselves?” I’m like, “Well, it’s probably, because you’re just telling them what to do, and they’re just going to wait.” And so, then I take them through, how they can allow a team to come to their own conclusion, and so powerful, because if the type eight leader just takes a step back and lets the team figure it out for themselves, and then comes to the type eight leader. The type eight leader generally, doesn’t care what they do. They just want them to do something. And then, we’ll just figure it out. It’s fine, just do something.

And so, if the type eight can hold themselves back and let them figure it out, they come up and say, “Let’s do this.” And the type eight will say, “Yeah, go ahead, do it.” And then, they go and do it. But the beautiful thing about it is that, it’s so empowering for the team because now it’s their idea. They have a vested interest in making it successful.

And the type eight recognizing this can say, “Wow, I can get them to be so much more motivated, if I just allow them to figure it out and do it themselves.” So, it benefits both sides, I think.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yes.

Matt Schlegel:                   Does that make sense?

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, yes. And what you described are some of the challenges that I had early on, frankly, as in my early profession, as a leader in different organizations, I faced that. And thankfully, I had really wonderful mentors and people around me to help me navigate that. What I found interesting that you said, and I want to talk a little bit more about was, when you talked about the response that some eight leaders have in terms of, “Oh, my gosh, I wish people would just do something, why are they not motivated? Or why don’t they have any gumption?”

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And I think the point of that is, as humans, we tend to see other people through the lens of our own understanding, right? So, if I’m that way, everybody must be that way, right?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               If I deal with problems this way, why don’t you deal with them that way? That’s the way I deal with them. And so, how do you coach people, eights or threes, or twos, or nines? Everyone is at risk of having that lens?

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes.

Amy A. Fairchild:               How do you coach people to begin to understand or begin to work on changing the lens, nor assuming?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. And this is exactly why, if you’re a leader of people, the Enneagram is the best tool I’ve found to use to answer that question. Because one, it allows you to understand your own lens, better than any system. But then, once you take the time to really go through and understand, what is it like to be a one.

Put yourself in the one shoes, or the twos shoes, or the threes shoes, and the Enneagram tells you what’s important to them. And it’s like, where is it in my life were getting it exactly right is really important to me? Okay, now I’m starting to get the sense of what it’s like to be a one all the time.

So, I know now that, if there’s something that requires that we get absolutely right, the type one is going to be the best one. Also, and type eights are they’re like, “It’s good enough, let’s go, come on.” Right? That’s exactly the opposite of type one. It’s never good enough.

And so, there’s often a lot of friction between ones and eights on that front. And so, a type eight leader working with the type one just has to, one recognize that the type one needs to have all the information, and enough time to process it, to get it to some level, and then you just coach them. It’s never going to be perfect.

So, let’s establish what that line is going to look like, so that you can get there, and then we can move forward. And that would be the coaching that you could give to your type one teammate. And all of these super rich discussions can happen, especially if the entire team has the vocabulary of the Enneagram, because it’s one of the most powerful things.

If everybody knows their Enneagram style, now you have this rich vocabulary to use, to have these really meaningful conversations about how to get stuff done, what’s good enough, and all that. And everybody will understand it, because everybody’s now talking the same language.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I love that you described it that way. And to just segue for a moment, I think it’s important for listeners who maybe aren’t in a team or corporate context. I want to make sure that we’re connecting the dots and that, when Matt and I are talking about team, team could be a corporate context, team could be your family, team could be your friend group, team could be your volunteer organization. Whatever group of people you are engaging with to achieve your human project can be the team.

So, I want to make sure that’s clear to people because I get how sometimes if we’re talking about a specific example that doesn’t apply to you, it may not feel like it’s a fit. But I absolutely, believe based on even what Matt just confirmed in terms of, if everyone in your team, if you will, everyone in that group of people has awareness of their own style.

What a huge benefit you have already in being aware to develop better communication, to set better boundaries, to have better priorities, to move with speed, all the things, and to have greater accountability, frankly. One of the things we talk about in human projects is, how do you develop self-accountability?

And some of that comes from knowing how you interact with others and inviting others to hold you accountable. What are some of the things on the flip side, so knowing yourself so that you can engage with people in a way that feels good to them? And also, gets them to do the things that you need them to, or would like for them to do, how does Enneagram help us in times of conflict?

Matt Schlegel:                   Great. One, it allows you to like, if you know your team, and you know their styles, and you recognize when they have moved for whatever reason, right? It could be something at home. But you can recognize when people are off, and they’ve moved in their path of insecurity, right?

So, one, just having that awareness, because then you could not necessarily talk about the thing you’re trying to get done, but you can just now maybe have a different conversation, like, “Hey, what’s going on? Is everything okay? What’s going on in your life?” Because if they’re in their state of insecurity, then everything else is going to be fraught.

So, number one thing is, bring them back to their normal self, or their healthy self, right? So, that then you can have a conversation with them without it triggering intense emotions, right? And once those emotions start to surface, then you’re probably aware, your amygdala takes over. It’s called amygdala hijack. And now, your emotional brain is in-charge, and it’s disconnecting from your thinking brain, and it’s not going to be good. So, you might go up on stage and hit somebody, I don’t know.

So, you just want to make sure that you don’t further stress them and bring them back. So, and then, once everybody is kind of in that calm state, then one, the conflict just might disappear. It might just evaporate. I don’t know what I was thinking, I’m sorry, or I do have this problem here, and I don’t think this other person’s listening to me. Do you recognize this situation, then you can have kind of a calmer conversation than one where everybody is emotionally charged?

So, that would be my advice, just first and foremost. And that’s in general, it’s not necessarily Enneagram related. But the Enneagram does give us more clues of when people are in their insecure state, and how to bring them back in.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I love that. What I love even more about it that you didn’t explicitly say but you implied is, it creates space, if you will, for us not to take things personally. So, to see if I understand you, so I used to work with a woman who, when she was feeling things were out of control, or she didn’t know what was going on, she would tend to micromanage me.

And I knew the minute I was being micromanaged that she just wasn’t feeling to use your words secure, whatever that is. And so, and once I learned that from her through conversations and understanding the type that she is, I was able to say, “Hey, this is what’s going on, that signaling to me that either I’m not giving you information or there’s something else bigger that we need to discuss.” It helped me, because I didn’t take it personally. I mean, nobody wants to be micromanaged. Well, I don’t know if nobody, very few people want to be micromanaged, right?

Matt Schlegel:                   Especially eights.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I know, especially eights. But very few people want to be micromanaged. And so, I didn’t take it personally. The old me might have spun off into, “Gosh, I must think I’m incompetent, I can’t do anything right, whatever.” But I didn’t take it personally and was able to open a conversation. So, I love that and that applies in so many different situations.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Giving us an opportunity not to take something personally by observing a behavior, and then saying, “Hey, I’m observing this. I feel like you need something that you’re not getting, what can I provide?”

Matt Schlegel:                   Exactly.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I love that so much.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yup, that’s a great example. Yeah, and you just don’t know. I mean, it’s probably not you. I mean, we tend to attribute other people’s behaviors to us, firsts.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I guess.

Matt Schlegel:                   But usually, it’s not us. It’s usually, something else that’s going on that’s causing it. Maybe, it’s their boss is pressuring them, or they have some internal pressure they’re putting on themselves or whatever, right? So, that’s such a great example, Amy.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I like too that that really works in relationships outside the workplace. My mom, for example, I think is a sixth, I’m not entirely sure. But I think, especially after speaking with you, today. I’m getting more sure that she might be. I’m going to have her take the Enneagram when we’re done…

Matt Schlegel:                   Awesome.

Amy A. Fairchild:               … because I want to know for sure. But I know enough about at a high level, the types to at least have an inkling of what might be the concern. And so, my mom and I have a really great relationship because of my awareness. Not that I’m perfect or anything, but just knowing that it could be something besides me.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               That it’s not all about me, it’s pretty great.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And that’s very empowering. So, if a person can find out their type, and then they start to have some awareness, and then they begin to understand the types of the people around them, so that they can interact in more meaningful ways, what if a person were initially just curious to leverage the power of Enneagram, whether they’re in a leadership position or not, what would you say are the top one or two things they should explore first, once they learn what type they are, or what profile they are?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. So, what I would suggest, and you alluded to this earlier is that, it’s great to start off your exploration of the Enneagram with people that you’re close to, your friends and your family, have conversations with them. In general, most people are quite curious about it.

And then, that allows you, because you already understand what that relationship looks like, and now you’ll know your type, you’ll know the type of a friend or family member. And then, you’ll have kind of a model for what that relationship looks like, good and bad, where things are, goes super well, and where things don’t go well. And then, you just start to develop that overall understanding. And thankfully, in my family, we do have one of every type.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, wow.

Matt Schlegel:                   I know. We just lucked out. And so, pretty much, in my family, we have several families that live in our town, and between all of us, we have all the types. So, it’s fascinating to see all those dynamics. And then, you can really understand how each is showing up, how each is contributing, who’s quiet, who’s talkative, and all of that.

So, that’s the starting point. And then, with that model now, then you can start to look at these, your interactions outside of your immediate family, and you could start to see the same patterns start to show up among the interactions of all the people in your social circles. And then, you can build and with the people who are open and receptive, and not everybody is, so you have to be a little cautious.

But for the people who are open to it, have the conversation with them, and share what you’re learning and share a little bit about, what you’ve learned about yourself and see if they’re interested in exploring it with you, and then build on that. In that way, you can start to build up these muscles that will serve you in whatever role that you play, when you’re interacting or working with people.

Amy A. Fairchild:               You bring up a really interesting point about whether people are open. And I think, oftentimes, well, I’m not going to say oftentimes. Sometimes, people will take an assessment like Enneagram. And all of a sudden, they have just enough information to be dangerous, and they become the diagnoser, if you will, of everyone else. So, they use it as a diagnostic, “Oh, well, this is your problem. Oh, well, this is where you need to work on stuff.”

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And I want to caution folks, I’ve done it. I’ll admit it early on when I first learned…

Matt Schlegel:                   Guilty.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Exactly. When I first learned about some of this stuff, I thought I was so great.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yup, yup.

Amy A. Fairchild:               But I think it is important to point out, that some people are not open to that. And it may not mean anything other than, it’s so new to them, they just don’t have enough information to respond. And so, I always tell people, when you’re exploring, you’re getting curious about new self-development, or new self-exploration tools, that’s not everyone’s bag of chips, right?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And it’s okay, it is okay. Don’t take offense.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. And even to be more blunt about it, the Enneagram tells you things about yourself that some people just don’t want to hear.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yes, yes it does.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. And so, when you really get to know yourself at that level, there is some pain associated with it as well. It’s like, “Oh, God, that’s why I do that, or I hate that about myself,” or whatever, right?

Amy A. Fairchild:               Right.

Matt Schlegel:                   And so, people do have self defense mechanisms, that just like, “Oh, I don’t want to go there,” right?

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   So, if they’re not ready for it, they’re not ready for it. So, then…

Amy A. Fairchild:               Right.

Matt Schlegel:                   … let’s not push it and just move on. And some people will come to it, some people won’t, that’s fine. I think that for those who do, and those who do take it to heart and do that work, you come out on the other side, so much better prepared for anything that life’s going to throw at.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yes, yes.

Matt Schlegel:                   It’s just amazing. And if you’re really, interested in being a leader and taking leadership roles, then I can think of no better tool, single tool that you could learn to understand the team dynamics, than the Enneagram.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, I agree. I love that you said, you just have to keep exploring. I think that’s the beauty of all of these things in particular, the Enneagram is just keep asking and keep exploring. You did mention about holding a mirror, if you will, up to yourself, like this assessment can do and others can do, but this one got me in a couple of places. I was like, “Whoa, I don’t really like what that’s telling me right now.”

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               When you have a client, who comes up against something like a wall, that’s just really uncomfortable for me, what do you tell a client in that situation? What types of guidance do you give them to either be open to looking at that? Or working on it more? Or exploring it? What kinds of things do you recommend?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. So, for the people who aren’t ready to do the deep introspection, then what I would do is just talk in general terms about, just general dynamics. These are the types of dynamics that I’m seeing. If I’m working with a leader say, and they’re trying to resolve some issue, and we can just look at the dynamics going on, and I can pretty easily say, “Well, it’s really common for type X and type Y to have that type of dynamic.”

So, I’m not saying your type X, and I’m not saying that person’s type Y, but let’s just look at that model, and then how would we take some steps to unwind that conflict? And then, let’s just try that and see what happens. And by doing that, you can hopefully demonstrate some value to the person you’re coaching that, oh, there is something to this system. I can use this system to resolve issues and without ever having them actually go in to figure out, “Oh, yeah, I really am a type…”

Amy A. Fairchild:               Right, right. So, to take that one step further than, would things like, so let’s say a person is open. So, for me, and I don’t know if I have the exact words, that came back on my assessment, because I don’t have it in front of me. But one of the things that I contend to do being an eight is come across as terse, right? Because I’m so direct.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And so, when I first learned that about myself, I was hurt, because I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, I’m not terse at all. That’s never, ever my intention. I never ever intend to be short with people and that kind of thing.” And so, what I did as an example, is I asked a couple of friends, “Hey, in these situations, how do I come across?” And then, I went and I journaled about it.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And I’m like, so when I do these things, people perceive it this way.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Am I still comfortable doing those things? And am I okay with how people react? Or do I want to change perhaps some of my delivery knowing that I can tend to come across that way? Is that what you might recommend to someone who’s open to changing? Maybe, asking some people around them, and then journaling? Or what will be some things?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. So, it will depend on the person and what they’re comfortable with doing. But it’s just so interesting you brought up this example, because I’m a six. And I love context. And I want to give all the context, so that you can see all the logic before you get to the punch line. The eight wants the punch line. They don’t want the context.

And so, when I’m dealing… Now, I know and this is common problem with people who type eight leaders are very common leaders, and people who had struggled with how to communicate to a type eight, and get to the point, that’s what I say, just keep it. If you can communicate in bullet points, just communicate in bullet points, keep it to like a text. That’s how you want to communicate with eight, because they already into it, the context. They already have that.

If there’s a piece missing to them, they’ll ask. Don’t bother them with all the context until they ask, just give them the bullet point. And that just, it’s just so helpful in communicating with eights, that style. And then, conversely, eights have to recognize that not everybody else communicate some bullet points. And other people, send out these long emails.

So, what you need to do with those people is just say, “Could you put the executive summary at the top of the email? I appreciate all that context, and I know that’s how you like to communicate, but just like, put the executive summary at the top, and then put in those stuff?” So, just knowing these tendencies of communication styles between different people, then you can make suggestions for how to communicate better with each other.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Sure.

Matt Schlegel:                   And so, that’s one thing. The other thing that, and I explore this in my book is that, each one of us has a mental focus on different points on a timeline. Some people are always thinking about the past. Some people are always thinking about the future. Some people are focused more on the present.

And when I watch people have different types, and I know where each types mental focus is, and they’re like talking to each other, it’s like, this person’s talking about the future. This person is talking about the past, they are having completely different conversations.

It is so amazing. If you overlay just the element of time on the conversation and where people’s focus is on that timeline. Just understanding that will help resolve a lot of communication issues and conflicts.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Makes a lot of sense. I love that. So, we’ve covered a lot of things and a lot of goodness for people to go explore more with how can folks get in touch with you and learn more about what you do?

Matt Schlegel:                   Thank you very much. I’ve just loved this conversation. And believe me, we’re just scratching the surface here.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I know.

Matt Schlegel:                   Because I wrote a book on the Enneagram. But there’s a lot of books on the Enneagram. And I didn’t need to write another book on the Enneagram. But I asked this question, why are Enneagram types, numbers? And it occurred to me that their numbers, because those dynamics that we’ve been talking about, are actually, the order in which people solve problems.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   So, that’s what I wrote the book about. And so, you can find more information about that. It’s called Teamwork 9.0, and the nine is the nine Enneagram types. And I talk about that on my website, evolutionaryteams.com, all one word, and that’s the best place to find me.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Fantastic, fantastic. And folks, I will put all of that information in the show notes if you did not catch it. If you’re on the treadmill or something like that, it’ll be in the show notes. Matt, thank you so, so much for being here today. This has been really, really interesting. And we could do a six-hour podcast with you talking.

Matt Schlegel:                   We can keep talking, I know. Thank you, Amy. I really appreciate it. Thanks. And it was so great to talk to you today.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Thank you. So, what are your next steps with today’s topic? The first is, I would ask you to take action today. Why not go to Matt’s website and take the Enneagram assessment, find out which type you are. And then, as you head into reflection today, the ahas, the oh nos, and the yippies. The ahas, or what did you learn? What insights did you get today? The oh, nos or what questions do you still have? And the yippies, or what can you celebrate?

Ask yourself if you could play a game with yourself, who might or what might be the types of Enneagram profiles of the people around you, and just see what you think. And then, if you get really curious, ask one of them to go take the assessment as well and see if you are right.

Let’s continue the conversation. You can find the Encourage Project at the encourageproject.com. You can find me on Instagram at the_encourage_project. And as always, you can send me a note, say hello at the encourageproject.com. That’s it for today’s really, really interesting episode. I’m really glad that you’re here. I’m happy that I’m well. And I look forward to connecting with you guys soon. Be safe, be well, and shine.