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Podcast

Corinna Bellizzi interviews Matt Schlegel on the Care More Be Better Podcast

October 3, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Corinna Bellizzi and Matt Schlegel have a broad ranging conversation covering different approaches to engaging with the climate crisis and how the Enneagram can be used as a tool to help us understand how best we can all contribute.

Show Notes:

04:38 Matt’s journey to becoming a climate activist

06:40 How individual effort and societal change can work together to make an impact

12:58 How to motivate communities and governments to change

15:19 The Enneagram and problem-solving

17:57 Getting people to connect emotionally with the problem and the vision for the future.

20:34 The normalcy bias and the grieving process of lifestyle transformation

27:45 The bigger problem and owning our responsibility for it

30:05 The power of local community organizing in effecting change

35:26 #FridaysForFuture and other initiatives

41:33 The value of neurodiversity and different perspectives in problem-solving

44:55 Matt’s advice

 

Join the Care More. Be Better. Community! (Social Links Below)

Website: https://www.caremorebebetter.com

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Support Care More. Be Better: A Social Impact + Sustainability Podcast Care More. Be Better. is not backed by any company. We answer only to our collective conscience. As a listener, reader, and subscriber you are part of this pod and this community and we are honored to have your support. If you can, please help finance the show (https://www.caremorebebetter.com/donate). Thank you, now and always, for your support as we get this thing started!

Find the transcript of the conversation here:

Reversing Global Warming: How The Enneagram Tool And #FridaysForFuture Can Join Forces To Address The Climate Crisis With Matt Schlegel Of Evolutionary Teams

 

Filed Under: Climate Crisis, Podcast

Coaching Call Podcast Discussing Our Early Inspirations

September 5, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Honored to be on the Coach Call Podcast.  Really enjoyed my conversation with expert coach and podcast host Sifu Rafael.  We discovered that we had much in common in our early childhood experiences and influences.

Check out the podcast on any platform. Here are a few:

Spotify:

S3 Ep#44 Matt Schlegel: Teamwork • Coaching Call (spotify.com)

Apple Podcast:

Coaching Call: S3 Ep#44 Matt Schlegel: Teamwork on Apple Podcasts

iHeart Radio:

Coaching Call | iHeart

 

Follow Coaching Call:

Facebook: facebook.com/coachingcall

Instagram: instagram.com/coachingcall

Email: maxfitness@optonline.net

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/maxfitness

Youtube: https://bit.ly/coachingcallYoutube to watch the full interview.

 

 

Filed Under: Leadership, Podcast

Enneagram and Feeling on the Grief Gratitude Podcast

July 25, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Delighted to be in conversation with Kendra Rinaldi, host of the Grief Gratitude Podcast.  On Episode #115, Kendra and I discuss the Enneagram and how different Enneagram types process feelings.

Grief Gratitude Podcast Episode #115: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/podcast/episode/8e9f5db2/115-using-enneagrams-to-understand-ouselves-and-others-with-matt-schlegel

Discover more episodes here: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/podcast

Learn about Kendra’s coaching services here: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/

Connect with Kendra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%F0%9F%8C%80kendra-rinaldi%F0%9F%8C%80-69186376/

[Podcast Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Each one of these types has a first reaction to a super stressful situation. And so for the gut people, it’s driven by anger. For the heart people, it’s driven by feelings and including sadness and grief. And then for the head people, it’s anxiety. So when people are going through a transition, depending on what their enneagram type is, they will probably start with one of those three.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes in transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief. I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I’m Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now let’s dive right in to today’s episode.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Welcome to today’s episode. We have Matt Schlegel on and we will be talking about his book, Teamwork 9.0 and talking about enneagrams and how we can use it to solve problems, including climate change. So that is a big one, that’s a big one. So welcome, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

So great to be with you here, Kendra. Thanks for having me.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Thank you. Thank you for being here. I’m so glad to have you on. And I was telling the assistant that reached out to tell me about your book regarding enneagrams. I’m like, “Oh yes. I’ve been looking into that.” And I had already had my children do to see which enneagram… Oh, okay, let’s get that one. Enneagram, enneagram, enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

Enneagram.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Enneagram, enneagram. Okay, I’ll just say it that way. Enneagram. What enneagram number my kids were just so that I could even know how to relate with them. I had made them do the test. I already had an idea which one they were and I was right on one child. I wasn’t right on the other, which was surprising. And then just recently I did it myself. Funny, I had done it for my kids, but I had not done for mine.

Matt Schlegel:

Are you going to tell us?

Kendra Rinaldi:

So I will tell you which one came up, number two. Yeah, I’m a two. I’m a two, that one came up. What about you? What number are you?

Matt Schlegel:

I’m a six.

Kendra Rinaldi:

You’re a six? So tell us, okay, my gosh we’re jumping already ahead. So what is number six? What is that one?

Matt Schlegel:

Oh, so sometimes we’re called the loyalist, sometimes we’re called like the bureaucrat, sometimes we’re called the questioner. We ask lots of questions. We like systems, we things to go in order predictably so that’s why we create these systems to try to make things happen in a predictable way.

Kendra Rinaldi:

And that’s exactly what you did. So tell us your background, because you’d wrote a book, but tell us what your background is and why it is that systems is definitely your niche.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. So yeah, I started out with a technical background engineering. I became an engineer and at some point my manager came to me and said, “Hey, Matt, I want you to be a manager.” And I said, “I don’t know how to manage people. I only know about managing electrons.” And he said, “Don’t worry, you’ll be fine.’ But now that you know I’m a six, you know I’m not fine. And so I started studying everything, studying, studying, studying, and then I came across all of these tools to help teams and people be more effective in working together. And one of those systems I came across was the enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

So my engineering brain likes to pull these systems apart and put them back together and see what works well and what doesn’t. And no matter how much I poked and prodded at enneagrams, it’s like, “Oh, this is amazing.” It’s like, it just keeps going and going and going and is so powerful and it’s so effective at predicting how things will work out, which appeals to a type six, obviously. So that’s why I just became fascinated with it. I ended up using it at work with my team, both as a personality system. And then I asked the question, why are the enneagram types numbers? Why aren’t they letters or colors or animals, or why numbers?

Kendra Rinaldi:

And why?

Matt Schlegel:

Well, it turns out that the numbers are there for a reason and it’s exact order in which humans solve problems. So there is a personality dynamic associated with each type and that dynamic is exactly the dynamic you need in problem solving for that step. So for instance, the type one is sometimes called the perfectionist and they’re the ones that say, “Hey, it shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this.’ Well, what’s the first step in problem solving, “Hey, there’s a problem. It shouldn’t be like that. It should be like this.” And on and around. So step two, for instance if you-

Kendra Rinaldi:

With the mind?

Matt Schlegel:

Relating to the step two, the step two is who cares? Who cares about the problem? If somebody thinks there’s a problem and nobody around them cares, then you’re probably not going to end up solving the problem. But if the one brings up, “Hey, there’s a problem.” And then a bunch of people around them say, “Yeah, you’re right. We care. There is a problem,” then guess what? The problem gets solved. You move to step three, let’s come up with some ideas. And step four, oh, let’s pick a good idea. And step five, let’s analyze the ideas. Step six, oh, let’s build a plan to get to the goal. Seven, let’s get everybody excited. Step eight, let’s stop talking and do it. And step nine, how did it work?

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s so perfect. Yeah. So then if nine people were to be in a team and each one was one number, then would that make that team be more effective if there was a one or two all the way through nine.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, exactly. It would be a perfectly balanced team. Now, the odds that you would get nine people, all one of each type together is almost astronomical that would happen. So most teams aren’t balanced like that, which is why I have a consulting practice.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. And I liked I just went to your link right now, which by the way I’ll make sure to link in the show notes so that people can go because you have a free assessment one, and yours was actually easier. I didn’t have time right before our call to fill it out and I had already done it in another website, but I felt the way you just checkmarked on these was easier than these other ones that go into these questions that it’s like from inaccurate to accurate kind of like, where are you? It’s a little more gray area when you’re answering. And you’re like, “Eh, am I like?” So those are a little more ambiguous sometimes in these other websites to answer. And I thought yours was really clear and concise because you just check mark which ones apply to you and then you kind of know in the number that you check mark the most, that probably that’s yours.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. And just one warning about enneagram assessments. In my experience, the one that I have up right now on my website is a good one but you have to also acknowledge that you’re coming to the test at a certain state in your life. Like for instance, when I first took the assessment years ago, I tested highest as an eight and six was the next highest. They were about the same, but eight was a little higher. And that’s because I was working in a situation surrounded by eights where eight behavior was expected and I was behaving like an eight and I was just filling the role that was expected of me. So when I checked off those things, I was like, “Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that.” And I wasn’t thinking about, is that really the way I would respond if I were just doing it on my own or am I doing it because that’s what’s expected me of my culture? And so just be aware that sometimes you may not score the highest on your actual core type.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. Now with that said, do you notice that the same can occur then in a family in which maybe you end up being more of a number because that’s what maybe is needed more in that role as a parent or something, that you end up kind of becoming more of a certain number in that dynamic as well?

Matt Schlegel:

I think that’s more true for adults than for children. If it’s children taking the test, they’re less in control and they’ve been less culturized into behaving in certain ways in certain situations. And so they tend to answer the questions more honestly. And so I’d say that’s more of a situation for an adult, like being a mother, there’s a lot of twoness in being a mother. And so if you’re a mother and you’re taking care of kids, you’re like, “Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that.”

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, I’m a two, I’m a two, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

You’re behaving like a two whether you’re a two or not as a mother.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s so true, that’s so true. Okay, so now let’s talk a little bit about your life. So where do you live? And then we already found out how it is you came about developing the system, but I wanted to learn more about you. So where do you live and a little bit about your family?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, so I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and I’m married for 31 years. I have three kids. The oldest is 28, living up in Seattle, next is down in San Diego and both are young women who are successfully out on their own and I’m very proud of them. And then I have a son who is still with us here in the home. He’s in college, he’s taking classes and he’s studying likely to be an engineer.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Like dad.

Matt Schlegel:

Following in his dad’s footsteps a little bit. And I’m very proud of him in the progress he’s making too. So, yeah, it’s great.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Excellent. Now, how did this enneagram, did you end up making everybody test when you found this out? How long ago did you find out about enneagrams and did you end up then having everyone in your family then take the test?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, so I’ve been working with the enneagram for over 20 years now. And we actually learned it through my wife’s church so the pastor at my wife’s church is really into the enneagram. And in fact, he now has a foundation that focuses on different elements of spirituality that aren’t necessarily religious. And one of those is the enneagram. And so he actually has invited me to become the director of enneagram studies for his foundation. So he’s my long time mentor on the enneagram and still we do monthly enneagram workshops together. So that’s a long way of saying I actually came into it after most of my family already knew it. And when I’m taking the test and then I’m testing eight and they’re looking at me like, “You’re not an eight,” you know what I’m saying? I’m like, “Oh, okay.”

Kendra Rinaldi:

And you’re like, okay so if you go with the flow, then wait, are eights more rigid or eights more…?

Matt Schlegel:

No, no. I mean, eight are probably less rigid. They’re the ones who like to be in control so they’re the boss or the asserter, that’s that style, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. But when you said “No, okay, I’m a six,” That’s why I said, oh, okay. Maybe you weren’t an eight if you’re like, “Okay, yeah, I’ll go with the six,” because maybe if you were an eight, you would’ve been like, no, no, I’m an eight. I know I am

Matt Schlegel:

That’s right. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. It’s like when they said you’re not an eight, it makes me think, which is exactly what a six does, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes, exactly. You’re like, “Oh wait. No, yeah, you’re right, I’m not.” Okay, so then you did that then in your personal life and then how is it that then you started then to implement? So when you were given this role at work to be a project manager, you’re like, “How am I going to manage people?” You come up with this system, this tool, how did you start implementing it then with your team?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Well, first of all like most people you come into the enneagram through that personality aspect of it. So that problem solving process, the one through nine came later. So I just started using it with my team and introduced them to it, got them to understand each other’s styles and types. And and it was really very effective at helping everybody understand each other’s perspective. And most importantly, it gives you a vocabulary. It gives you a vocabulary to talk about these different dynamics that are going on, right? When some conflict arises and you have the vocabulary of the enneagram, and you could say, “Well, you are one and you are a seven, and you know the ones have this objective, the sevens have this objective.” And you’re all trying to get to the same end point, but you have these different perspectives and that’s where this conflict is arising and so let’s talk about that.

Matt Schlegel:

And that’s one of the things I’m most grateful about for the system is that vocabulary and then allowing people to just open up that possibility that, “Oh, well, yeah, my perspective isn’t the only perspective and now that I understand they are one and I understand what’s important to them I can totally see why they’re doing that and, well, this is the common ground, so let’s do that.” Boom, done.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Then it helps. Now, how open are people in general to take the test, when you’re managing a team, are people really excited to find out what they are? Are people reluctant or do people see how beneficial this could be in that team or work environment? You know what I mean? Have you had all kinds of people, be like, “Nah, I don’t want to do that.”

Matt Schlegel:

All of the above. And it depends on the type. Some types, like you said earlier, eight, I am an eight. Yeah, okay, let’s go, right? I mean, eight is one, they don’t mind being an eight and they resonate with that eightness and it’s done. And certain type ones are also, they pretty easily self-identify. But then some of the other types have more trouble like take the nine, right? The nine is the master at understanding everybody’s perspective. That’s what they do, they’re always thinking of others, they’re always putting themselves into other people’s shoes. And so it’s really hard for them to, say, “Well then who am I?” And so when you’re talking to a nine, it’s like, “Well, maybe that is one of the aspects of being a nine is that you can do this.” Oh, okay, right? So each type, another one is fours, they’re able to put themselves in everybody’s emotional shoes. And so sometimes they have a little more trouble. Fives, they tend to be able to masterfully take on different roles and personas in the environment. So they feel like they can be anybody and to the point where like, “Okay, so which one am I?”

Kendra Rinaldi:

Which one am I? Because they’re a chameleon, uh-huh.

Matt Schlegel:

And the one that they are is the one that’s able to put themselves in everybody’s personas.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Right, right, right, right, right, right. So, yeah, so then it helps. Now in the work environment when you’ve done this, do you see that there’s numbers that work better together in general personality wise? What would you say is that? Is there a particular formula for that?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and I actually write about this in a chapter in my book called Work Team Triads. And I first noticed it just anecdotally, just seeing if you just throw people together and they kind of organically start to work together and then I would see which types are just naturally working together. And I found out that there are these three distinct groups that just naturally work together with almost no conflict at all. It’s just like, wow. And I call them work team triads, and I gave them names, but there is another author who called them the harmony triads.

Matt Schlegel:

And so they’re the one, the four and the seven; the two, the five and the eight; and the three, six and nine. And so those groups of three tend to like each other and work well together. And so that’s a really interesting facet that I’ve found of this. And each one of those teams brings a certain distinct dynamic, right? So if you have a one and a seven and the four together, they want to do new, innovative, fun stuff, right? So that’s your team for like exploring new possibilities. And then the two, five and the eight, what they want to do is like, “We want to get stuff done.”

Matt Schlegel:

And then so then those are the type of people who tend to migrate to more operations types of roles in companies where they’re just cranking out product or they’re running the place, right? And then the three, six, nine, that’s the group that kind of wants to look at everything and build a smooth operating structure for everything, right? And so they tend to put in place the organizations and the systems that just kind of make it all work together. And so those are kind of the three, and you’ll see companies go through that same phase too, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Well, that’s what I was just going to say, yeah, because you need the creatives to come up with the idea of what it is going to be to then hand off to the two, the fives and the eights to then implement it to then hand to the team that’s a three, six, nine to then be able to create the whole picture.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. So I call them the startup triad, the industrious triad and the systematizing triad.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is so cool. Okay, so those are triads. Now, are there numbers, let’s say that would work, I know you mainly do it for work environments but would there be then numbers that work together as teams in relationship wise too? Because these are tryouts, which ones would be like numbers that work well, just as binary?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. So so any combination of those harmony triads. So oftentimes you’ll see eights and twos pair up eights, twos and fives, any combination of those will pair up. One, fours and sevens, you see that all the time, ones and sevens marry each other all the time. The other one is three, six, nines. I see couples from that triad together all the time.

Matt Schlegel:

And then there’s one other pattern that I’ve seen, and this is a really interesting aspect of the enneagram, is that for any type, the hardest dynamic… So I’m a six and I’m kind of in my six dynamic and I have more or less access to the other dynamics, the other eight dynamics, but generally the hardest dynamic for any type to access is one type hire. Like for me, it’s the seven, right? And that is true almost all the time, all the way around.

Matt Schlegel:

So here’s what I see happen is that when women, because women make the choice usually in the relationship, right? So when women are looking for somebody to partner with, they see tin hat person who is one type, one number higher, someone who’s very complimentary to them. So I see this all the time and it does get a little bit gender related in this case, but that’s just the pattern I’ve observed is that the woman will often choose a man who is one number higher. And so that’s another pattern I see.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is interesting. Now I’m curious now because you’ve interviewed then a lot of people to be able to see all these patterns, you’ve been able to observe a lot of different people. Because with this podcast being a lot regarding grief, have you noticed in situations that are hard how each number deals with transitions differently, like a change in life? Could you talk a little bit about that and how would that apply in situations like that in their life?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, yes. Great question. And enneagram really can speak to this very well because there’s another set of triads in the enneagram. And these are called the centers, these are the main triads of the enneagram. It’s the eight, nine, one; the two, three four; and the five, six seven. And the best way I found to explain this is if you’ve seen the movie The Wizard of Oz and there’s Dorothy and she meets these three characters on her journey. She meets the lion who wants courage, meets the tin man who wants a heart and meets the scarecrow who wants a head. And those are exactly the same elements that are associated with these main triads. The eight, nine, one are the gut people. Th two, three, four are the heart people. And the five, six, seven are the head people.

Matt Schlegel:

And then each one of these types has a first reaction to a super stressful situation. And so for the gut people, it’s driven by anger. For the heart people, it’s driven by feelings and including sadness and grief. And then for the head people it’s anxiety. So when people are going through a transition, depending on what their enneagram type is, they will probably start with one of those three. Some people will go straight to grief, some people will go to anger and some people will go to anxiety and have panic attacks, right? So for instance, when I saw the title of your podcast, I knew immediately that you were in the two, three, four group, because you start off with grief and gratitude, which is exactly, the grief is the two, three, four, and the gratitude is the two. So if you had asked me just from the podcast title, I could have guessed two.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is so interesting. It’s interesting how much you can know about someone just by these choices. And then with knowing this then too, then in assimilating when other people are going through something hard, by knowing your enneagram and by knowing other people and your families’ enneagram, you can know where they’re at in that moment of their transition and why it is that maybe they’re leading more towards the anxiety component in that transition, rather than with the grief and the sadness or the other person maybe leading with anger. And it helps you understand and be more empathetic towards the way that each of us is dealing with it differently.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly, exactly, exactly. And no response is wrong, right? There is no wrong response. And we’re humans. And this is the one thing I love about the enneagram is because just once I understood I’m a six and being a six guy in America is kind of a tough thing, it’s not the normal accepted behavior for a guy. The kind of the prototypical guy model is the eight. And so as a six I’m having to kind of step out of my comfort zone and be more like what’s expected of me in my culture. And then if you’re not aware that you’re doing that intentionally, and you’re just like, “Oh, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I just do what comes to them naturally?” It can be a little self defeating, right?

Matt Schlegel:

But once you understand your enneagram type, and then you understand what is your gift, what is your superpower in problem solving? Because we all have a superpower in problem solving. We all have this superpower that we can contribute to helping everybody else out. And then once you know that, it’s like, oh I feel the way I am, because that’s exactly the right thing for me to feel and I just need to now know how to channel that into a healthy contribution to the group and not let it control me. I’m just using it to inform me.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s the right word.

Matt Schlegel:

I can now inform the group better about what is going on. Does that make sense?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes, absolutely. And I think that is so important because sometimes we’re so hard on ourselves in how it is we react to situations. We’re our biggest judge, right? And so by being understanding and having grace with ourselves and the way that we deal with certain situations and the way that we react based on our personality, it gives us also that capacity of having grace with others, if we have grace with ourselves as well.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes, right. And then, yeah, once you have that acceptance of yourself and “Oh, it’s okay for me to feel anxious. I’m supposed to feel anxious. It’s not a problem.” And then it’s like, “Oh, it’s okay for them to be angry, that’s exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. It’s okay for them to be sad, that’s exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. It’s all okay.” And then we can just like, what is that telling us? Why are they sad? What about what we’re doing is causing-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Bringing up those emotions.

Matt Schlegel:

Them to be sad and what can we do to help them overcome that?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. No, that is awesome. Now you mentioned before we started recording how then these enneagrams can also help us with climate change.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay, let’s go into that. How is it that understanding this can then lead us to solve these bigger world problems?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right, yeah. So you can look at the challenge of climate change as a problem, right? It’s a problem, right? And so step one in that problem solving process is identifying that, “Oh, there’s a problem.” And so then once you say, “Okay, there’s a problem,” then you go to step two, which is, do you care? And I would say right now collectively, and I live in America so I’ll just speak for America, in my impression is not enough people yet care, right? Once enough people care then action starts to happen, right? And so I think we’re in this process now of moving from realization of the problem and then moving into caring about the problem.

Matt Schlegel:

But there’s a big challenge with caring about climate change, which is different from other challenges in a big way. And that is that once you acknowledge that, “Oh, there’s a climate crisis and it’s caused by burning fossil fuels, that’s the root cause of this is burning fossil fuels.” Then you’re like, “If I acknowledge that problem, does that mean I have to stop burning fossil fuels? Does that mean I have to start thinking about how I’m using fossil fuels? When I’m showering, is that a gas heater out there heating up that water? When I get in my car, am I burning fossil fuels to get to work? I get on an airplane, am I burning fossil fuel kerosene as I’m flying across the country?”

Kendra Rinaldi:

As I’m using this plastic cup, did fossil fuel go into creating this? So many things.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. And so once you get to that point, in that process, I look at it as a grieving process and what’s the first step in grieving? Denial.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Realization. Well, oh, denial, yeah. If we go by the steps, yeah. Or that realization, yeah. Okay.

Matt Schlegel:

So it’s a lot easier for us to just deny the problem and deny there’s a problem and blithely go along on our lives and just ignore the problem.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Because if we accept it, then we have to take action, which is way more work.

Matt Schlegel:

But it’s more than that, it’s actually going through the grieving process. And you see it, right? Some people will get sad, so we have climate grief now, that’s a term, we have climate anxiety or eco anxiety, that’s a term. So you can see, and then you get people-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Anger.

Matt Schlegel:

Who go to just like we had, I think the mass shooting we had in Buffalo is a manifestation of somebody who’s reacting to climate with anger. And so we’re going to see these reactions to the climate crisis, anger, we’re going to see grief and we’re going to see anxiety. And we’re going to be just seeing more and more of it because the climate crisis isn’t going away and we’re all going to be impacted by it soon. And so I know this is kind of heavy stuff, but the enneagram does give us a model for how humanity will respond in our various ways. And then and the hopeful thing is as more and more of us actually overcome our denial then and our impact and work start to work through that grieving process, that’s going to get us to action. That is the thing that will get us to action.

Kendra Rinaldi:

And now in that action then, I was having this conversation right before in the other interview I was having. And it’s about like, sometimes we think these big things are happening war. Okay, what do I do about that?” Can I go and stop the actual, no. So there’s other smaller things we can do in our day-to-day to have a ripple effect in the big scheme. So in that action then that we can each take then for climate change and the impact each of us are making, what would you say, going back to enneagram, are there then some specific things then that in each enneagram group, enneagram group would then lead more towards doing?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, yeah. And that’s a great question. And what I tell people is once they do get to the point where they want to take action, the climate crisis is, there’s a term now called hyperobject. The hyperobject is the thing that touches everything, right? And there’s a parable about the elephant and the five blind men and you put five blind men into a room-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, each touching part of it, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and they’re all describing the problem in different ways, but the real problem is it’s the elephant in the room. And so when I talk to people who want to take action, I ask them, “Well, what are you passionate about? Are you passionate about recycling, or are you passionate about reducing single use plastic, or are you passionate about working with your local representative and getting them to do something?” Because we all need to do everything and so the best thing to do is the thing that you’re passionate about, because you’re bringing your whole heart and your whole self to it, and that will infect other people to want to join you because they’ll see your passion and they’ll want to join you in doing it. And so there’s no wrong answer in taking climate action. It’s an all of the above thing and just follow your heart and do what you can do while keeping in mind that the most important thing you can do is actually start to reduce the amount of fossil fuel you burn in your life.

Matt Schlegel:

And then be that example. So if you can bike instead of getting into the car, bike instead of getting into the car and show everybody, “Hey, I’m biking, I’m going to bike to the station instead of taking the car,” whatever, just start thinking about how you’re using. We’re electrifying our home and the last appliance that we had was the water heater, and we replaced our gas water heater with a heat pump water heater, and we turned off the gas to the house now there’s no gas flowing to the house and it’s great. And now the city is going to interview me and ask me about the experience and then they’re going to put up my testimonial and so I’m just going to like there are poeople that do it.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s the ripple effect right there, right?

Matt Schlegel:

And that’s what we want to do, yeah, yeah.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, yes. Just one little thing can make a difference. Now, and in the same aspect then back again to even just the teamwork, Teamwork 9.0, that’s teamwork right there in the big scope of things of life right there. And then in your work environment, then the same, when we know that what we’re doing has an impact in the organization we’re part of, in the family unit we’re, in the city we live in and so forth it does make a difference. When we realize our actions do affect another human being. So it all comes down also to that, that connectiveness of humanness, of each other.

Matt Schlegel:

It’s very scalable. From the smallest team, like you and your partner or you and your family, or I joined rock band last year.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, how cool? What do you play? Do you play or do you sing?

Matt Schlegel:

So I’m kind of the utility player. I’ve been doing vocals, bass and drums with this band. So yeah, but all of them have different enneagram styles so you see all those dynamics come into play in that situation too. But it’s everywhere, right? And then, “Oh, she’s a one, that’s why she’s bringing this up.” And okay, I understand that and let’s work with her to help her solve this thing that she thinks is wrong and let’s help her get it to being right.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Did you make them all in the band also take the test?

Matt Schlegel:

I haven’t said anything about the enneagram for that. This is all just going on in my mind.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, now they’re going to have to take it so that you guys even can just work more effectively. Yeah, that’d be interesting that in every single dynamic that we’re in if we were to take that. But if not, then, like you said, if we even have an understanding of what other people are in terms of personality is just how we relate to them that also shifts and just by even changing that dynamic and that interaction, it already has an effect on the team.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and this just came up the other day. One of the persons who’s a type one had made a comment and I thought how would I respond to that? And I’m like, so they’re in the intuitive group and I’m in the head group, and the comment they made really made no sense to me, to my rational brain. But whatever I would say would come from a place of like, “That doesn’t make sense. Can you explain that to me?” Whereas there’s another person in the band who is also in that intuitive group who’s a nine. And I know the nine will always say the nicest, softest thing and will understand the one way better than I do. So I just zipped my mouth and I just waited and sure enough, the nine spoke up and said the most perfect thing. So just having that knowledge and just being able to check myself and my reaction and just letting that naturally happen.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, how beautiful?

Matt Schlegel:

That was worth the price of a mission on learning the enneagram, just for that.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s beautiful, but that takes a lot of self control to do what you did of just like, “Okay, let me just wait because I know that I will not say the right thing to this number one but if I just wait a number nine will say the right thing in order to be out of the situation. That’s wonderful. Okay, so then how many years has it been that you’ve been using this then in the workspace? I know you said 20 years ago was when your wife first brought it. And honestly, it’s only been in the last year that I’ve heard about this for myself. I had not heard about this. But again, I’m not testing myself all the time to figure out what personality trait I am.

Matt Schlegel:

But the millennials are all over this.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. Oh, I’m hearing it so much now. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. And if you go on to YouTube and you Google enneagram, there is just some hilarious comments, videos about different enneagram types.

Kendra Rinaldi:

What they would do in the same situation? Yeah, like how they would have… It’s funny, it’s funny.

Matt Schlegel:

It’s so funny and it’s a great way to learn about the different styles.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah. So for you then when did you start implementing it then in your strategy?

Matt Schlegel:

It was shortly after I learned. I just started talking to people about it, it was a part of my learning process. Do you know this? Are you interested? And other people in my group would say, “Yeah, I’ll take the test, sure,” and they took it and so it was pretty much right away that I was able to start to use it in the work setting very informally at first. Yeah.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. And now let’s talk about your book. When did you launch it and how do people, how can people get ahold of it?

Matt Schlegel:

Oh yeah. So thank you for that. We launched it March 2020, right as we were going into pandemic world. And so, yeah, and it’s available on Amazon and definitely check it out and you can go to the website and take that assessment and that’s complimentary and just love to get your feedback on your thoughts on the book and how you’re using it. It’s always a delight to hear the different stories and different experiences people are having.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Now, who is this book for? Who is it for? Is it for someone that, like yourself, was a project manager that needed to figure out, is it for a parent? Is it for a teacher? Is it for somebody in the workspace? Who is the best person for this book?

Matt Schlegel:

So the answer is leaders of teams. So I was thinking of project and program managers, I had them in mind. And then I just had managers in general, who are managing a team and leaders in general, who are leading a team I wrote the book for them. It is just such a powerful tool for a leader to have that knowledge, even if their team doesn’t. I’m sharing examples of how I use it with my band, right? They don’t know the enneagram, but I know the enneagram. And as a leader I want everybody to work well together and I know when I can jump in and when I shouldn’t, and once other people can jump in and it’s the perfect thing, right? And so understanding, I mean, and I talk about, I have a chapter called shared leadership. It’s like when is it better for you to step back and let somebody else take that lead rather than just jumping in yourself? But it’s for it’s for leaders in general that I really have targeted the book.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Wonderful, wonderful. Now, is there anything I have not asked you that you would like to share or any final words for the listeners as they’re listening? Again, we’ve gotten a lot, we’ve gotten of how it is you can use it just for yourself, knowing your enneagram, how is that helpful for yourself? How is it helpful when you’re interacting with others in a work environment? How is it helpful in understanding that as you’re dealing with a transition or grief experience in your life, or a difficult time, and then how is it helpful when you’re leading also then teams? So what other things would you like to share with the listeners regarding how they can use this knowledge, this tool?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, and I just so appreciate this conversation and you asked all the right question, is so great to be able to share this. So you did such a good job of leading us through that, I don’t have anything else to add.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, well, I’m glad, I’m glad I was able to ask the right questions to get to that. So thank you, I learned so much about it. I learned so much about it. And again, the book is Teamwork 9.0 and author Matt Schlegel, who is with us today again. And thank you so much again for sharing your knowledge and on this topic and your own life experiences of how you’ve used this in your life so thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

Thank you, Kendra. It was a delight meeting with you today.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today’s episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode, and if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do. So also, if you or someone has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well. Please reach out to me and thanks once again for tuning into Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.

Filed Under: Enneagram, Podcast

Matt Schlegel talks Enneagram and Teams on The Thoughtful Entrepreneur Podcast

May 24, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Honored to be on Josh Elledge’s The Thoughtful Entrepreneur podcast. Josh is an Enneagram Type 7 so we quickly dive deep into personality type and team dynamics. Speaking of dynamics, Josh is a very dynamic Type 7. Josh solves the problem of B2B sales and has a novel approach to providing an endless stream of high-ticket qualified customers using the Go Giver approach to building strong relationships.

Josh is founder of UpMyInfluence.com and Chief Executive Angel at Savings Angel.

Check out all Josh’s podcasts:

The SavingsAngel Show

Authority Confidential

Thoughtful Entrepreneur

#Team #Leader #Leadership #Enneagram #B2BSales #Entrepreneurship #HighTicketSales #HighTicketSales #Podcast

[Video Transcript]

Josh Elledge:                      With us right now, it’s Matt Schlegel. Matt, you are the author of the book, Teamwork 9.0, you’re a consultant, author and speaker and you are the principal with Schlegel Consulting and you’re found on the web at evolutionaryteams.com. Matt, thank you so much for joining us.

Matt Schlegel:                   It’s so great to be with you here today, Josh. Thank you.

Josh Elledge:                      I should say that we’re about 11 minutes into our conversation by the time we finally hit record, because we started talking about the Enneagram, which is one construct that you use in your work.

I saw that and I’m like, oh, I’m a seven, my wife is a six and we started talking about that, but we’re going to get to that for sure.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Josh Elledge:                      Please give us an overview of your work, who you work with and the impact that you have.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Well thank you. My background is in engineering product development and I’ve always been focused on getting my teams to be more effective. So along the way, I’m always looking for great new tools to use, to keep the team working together, keep them aligned and moving forward.

And along the way I found this really fascinating tool called the Enneagram and I started using it with my team and it was stunning how effective it was at helping the team members understand each other, resolve conflicts, understand perspectives, improve communication.

And then, I also realized that the Enneagram has numbers for the types, not colors or letters or animals. It’s numbers. Why is it numbers? And I found out that the there’s a reason why they’re numbers and the numbers are in the order in which each of those personality dynamics come into play in problem solving.

So for instance type one is the one say, “Hey, that’s not right, shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this.”

Well, what’s the first step in problem solving. It’s like, hey, there’s a problem, it shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this. And all the way around.

So I became faceted with the Enneagram in that way, developed a problem-solving methodology, used that with my teams. It was amazing with that. And then I founded my company to just do consulting in that world. And I wrote a book Teamwork 9.0, which you gratefully mentioned.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   And it describes how you can use the Enneagram in this novel way. So yes, it’s a fantastic personality system, but it’s also a very powerful problem-solving system that gets teams aligned around solving big, challenging problems.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Tell me about the book and who the book is for. Teamwork 9.0, you could get it right now on Amazon. Mostly I’m curious about, what is the transformation that takes place in the reader when they consume and apply the content.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. I would say, broadly speaking, the audience for the book is leaders of teams. Anybody who is leading a team will benefit from reading the book, knowing the Enneagram, applying both the personality side of it, to understanding the team dynamics at a personality level, but then understanding all the challenges the team has as they’re moving through the problem-solving process towards their goal.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. And overall, if you were to go through the structure of… I understand who it’s written for, but what would you say would be some of the high level headlines of, if you really want to succeed with teams today… I hate to ask you to do this, but boil it down. Your entire book, your life’s learning, into a couple of principles. Sorry. That’s so unfair.

Matt Schlegel:                   No, no. What happens to teams is that we often, as leaders, tend to hire people like ourselves, who think the same way. And when we do that, then we will create a team that is imbalanced and will have some blind spots. You may even be unaware of the blind spots, because you don’t have all the perspectives and you end up getting into these situations and we have all of these affirmisms for analysis by paralysis, right?

If you have a team that’s just mostly fives, all they’re going to do be doing is analyzing things and not moving forward. So this book helps leaders understand how teams get stuck and then helps them get unstuck and moving towards their goal. That is the bottom line is, I’m trying to make teams as effective as they can be.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. How do you work professionally then, as a consultancy? Who are you typically working with and what does engagement look like?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. I will engage with my clients in a number of different ways. Some clients just want to learn the Enneagram. A leader will say, “I have this team, I want to understand my team better. I want them to understand me better. I want them to understand each other better.”

And then, I will do an Enneagram workshop with them in order to help everybody understand their perspectives. And then I’ll also overlay and share that framework of problem solving with the team. I’ll say, “Well, I’m looking at your team. You’ve got a few eights and you’ve got a few twos and you’ve got a few fives, but you’re probably challenged in this way.”

I can know how the team will be challenged based on the mix of the teams. And when I show them the problem solving process, then they’ll start to realize, oh yeah, that’s why we get stuck here, and maybe we need to one, just appreciate that and step into that role ourselves or maybe we bring in somebody to fill that role for us so that we don’t get stuck there like we always do.

So just to help the team understand those team dynamics that are going on when they’re working together.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. So there are different modalities. I’m using a big word like I know what I’m talking about. There are different ways that you can say, well, I am a… And people will list out, so Enneagram. I tend to like that over… What’s that another one that’s like E F and M?

Matt Schlegel:                   Myers-Briggs.

Josh Elledge:                      Myers-Briggs were very popular. Yeah. What is it about Enneagram that is resourceful for you in a way that maybe the other ones aren’t?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Well for me Myers-Briggs seems unnecessarily complicated. It’s a little harder for me to intuitively grasp. That was one problem I had with it.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Me too.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. And then the other problem I had with it is that it really doesn’t speak to dynamicism. I know intuitively that my behaviors change based on my stress levels, if I’m relaxed or I’m stressed, and I know these changes are happening and that Myers-Briggs doesn’t necessarily speak to that.

Whereas the Enneagram, just built into it, is all these dynamics, right? If you look at the Enneagram diagram, one it’s a circle, and then there’s all these lines in the middle. And every point on the circle, every number, is connected to two other numbers. And those are your stress and unstress lines.

So when you’re stressed, you tend to move in one direction and when you are unstressed, you tend to move in another direction. So you can see, oh, that’s why I start to behave this way when I’m stressed. For instance, for me, I’m a six. The head group, which the six is at the core of, the dominant driver to behaviors is anxiety.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   And six is-

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. I’m married to a six and I agree.

Matt Schlegel:                   Six is, what we do is we tend to suppress our anxiety, but it comes up when things aren’t going the way we expect. And when they do, that anxiety starts to rise in us. And then our behaviors start to look more like the type three.

Now the type three is called the achiever. They’re really highly productive, and they’re just wanting to get stuff done. And I realize I do this. When I start to get stressed, I start making lists and I start checking stuff off. And as I’m doing that, my anxiety’s going down. After I get all that stuff done, and I’m addressing all the things that are causing me anxiety, then I can relax again.

But during that phase, I was like looking and behaving more like a three. And when I can get to that point where, ah, I’m on vacation, I’m not worried about anything. Then I can look like that nice, relaxed nine. I can get a good night’s sleep and all that.

So just those dynamics fascinated me and then understanding how each type has a unique set of dynamics is amazing power in that system that really appealed to me.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. What happens when a seven gets stressed?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Well, when the seven gets stressed, they move to type one. They can get very particular about things and start to nitpick on things and go down that path.

Josh Elledge:                      Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes. The one is perfectionist, right?

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   So they’re striving to get it right. But when the seven, their anxiety comes up, it’s because they’re not able to seek fun relationships.

Josh Elledge:                      Yes.

Matt Schlegel:                   And things aren’t going the way they want them to do, so they start to nitpick on things. Does that sound familiar?

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, okay, variety and stuff, that’s all well and good when times are good, but right now, I need to get my life in order.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Josh Elledge:                      Or, oh, heaven forbid, there would maybe be a situation in business or with a team. I like to break things down to their simplest elements and like, let’s address the emotions, let’s address this. And it does, it feels… I feel organized, I feel like I’m being responsible. Let’s lay out all the cards out on the table.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Josh Elledge:                      But yes, this is the standard for this, this is the way it should be and so forth.

Matt Schlegel:                   You used such a good word there is, putting things in order, because that is a very one activity, putting things in order. Organizing their shelves, organizing the dishes in the rack. Everything needs to be in order.

Josh Elledge:                      Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   That’s a great word.

Josh Elledge:                      I just chalked it up to the monk in me that occasionally comes out.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes.

Josh Elledge:                      Like my toothpaste, for example, does need to be rolled a certain way. Yeah. Okay. This is really applicable for our teams. How do we use this?

For example, if I know my director of operations, she’s a one. She’s the perfectionist, she is absolutely the order in all things and she is perfect for her role.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes.

Josh Elledge:                      If anything gets by her, it’s very infrequent and I could tell she’s really disappointed if something does get past her.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. When I was looking for an editor for my book, I wanted to hire a one.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   I started just interviewing editors and talking to them about the book. And until I came across an editor that says, oh, I love the Enneagram. I’m a type one. I’m like, yes, because you’re exactly right.

Here’s the other thing, Josh, and I talk about this in the book, on work teams. What people come together to form effective work teams?

And there’re groups of three. In Enneagram [inaudible 00:14:28] we call them triads, but groups of three that do come together and one of the groups is the one, the seven and the four. That one-seven combination is really powerful and it’s a very complimentary combination.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Okay. So someone’s listening to our conversation and they’re like, this is great. Are you working long term with people? Do you work on a workshop basis? How does that usually look?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. There’re two different models. One, I mentioned just do the workshop, but the other is, and this is what I love to do as well is, work with a team that has a big challenge and help that team work through the challenge. In other words, take them through that nine-step Enneagram problem solving process and get the team to solve the big challenge.

I describe it like, when you need to work on the system, rather than just in the system. I tend to work with say a cross-functional team of leaders. For instance, if you are wanting to improve your product development process, or you want to reduce product returns, or you want to come up with creative ways to solve a supply chain issue, or how to bring people back into the office. It’s something big that you as an organization need to do, but it’s not your main business necessarily, right?

It’s not what you do every day. You need to stand back and look big picture and get your team aligned to come together, to solve the problem and develop a new way of working together, that’s more effective than you’re doing now.

So then I take a team of cross-functional leaders. I like somebody from operations, from engineering, from finance, from IT, one of everybody, a leader in that group, and get them to work together and collaborate on what their ideal way of working together would be like, once that big challenge was solved and get them to visualize that.

And then get them to work together, come up with creative ideas and then implement those ideas to solve the problem. And I can do that with a team, just stepping them through the process. And it’s such fascinating work to see teams come together around solving problems that they often don’t even think they can solve.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Your website, evolutionaryteams.com. Someone goes there, what should they click on? What do they do?

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. You can send me an email, give me a call. If you have a question and you want to learn more, you can always contact me. I have a blog where I talk about a lot of these concepts. Definitely reach out to me if there’s something on your mind that you want to explore.

Also, if you’re just interested in the Enneagram, I do have a complimentary Enneagram assessment on the website. So feel free to take that and use that to start to explore your Enneagram type.

Josh Elledge:                      Yeah. Terrific. Awesome. All right. Matt Schlegel, your book, I want to promote that. I just had it on the other page. Oh, Teamwork 9.0, that’s on Amazon. And of course your website, evolutionaryteams.com. Matt Schlegel, thank you so much for joining us.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thank you, Josh. It’s been great speaking with you.

 

Filed Under: Enneagram, Podcast

The Encourage Project Podcast host Amy A. Fairchild Interviews Matt Schlegel about the Enneagram

May 9, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Honored to be a guest on Amy A. Fairchild’s  podcast, The Encourage Project. We discuss the Enneagram as a tool for self-discovery and interpersonal dynamics. Amy is highly Enneagram aware, so we dive deep into the conversation. So much fun!

 

Find Amy here:

Instagram – @the_encourage_project

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-a-fairchild-pmp-03b7022/

 

Find the podcast here:

Podcast:  https://the-encourage-project-with-amy-a-fairchild.simplecast.com/episodes/067-enneagram-human-projects

 

[Transcript]

Amy A. Fairchild:               Welcome, welcome to the Encourage Project. I’m Amy Fairchild, and I’m finally healthy. I am 100%, if you cannot tell by my voice. And I’m so happy that you’re here. I’m really happy I’m here. I’m so happy I’m here. And I just want to say, you’re exactly where you are meant to be, for I’m exactly where I’m meant to be too. So, it’s all good. Thank you for being part of this time together.

In our last episode, we wrapped up the three-part series on the Human Project framework, plan, act, reflect. And as you work your way through those pieces of the framework, let us know what resonates for you. Send us your ahas, oh nos, and yippies. And we’re going to continue supporting that framework over the next few episodes.

In each of the episodes around the framework, plan, act, reflect, I talked about practices that I have found helpful in my own journey and through my own human project’s mindset, shifts, rituals, habits, things that I’ve implemented along the way. And I’ve gotten some questions about how those things, and more importantly, how I found them are working for me.

And the answer to that is twofold. When I decided to really invest conscious effort into the things that I want to do and achieve in this lifetime, I really had to look at myself first. So, I first invested time and learning more about me, how do I work? How do I interact with others? How do I prefer to learn? I learned things about my energy and what makes me really excited, and what makes me want to lean in to certain activities.

And then, after I learned about myself, I just got curious and started experimenting. I explored different physical activities and practices. I explored different meditation and reflection approaches like journaling, you guys have heard me talk about journaling lots of times. And throughout my life, interestingly, I’ve always been curious about approaches that provide possible insights into who I am.

Things like personality assessments, and human design. I’m a huge, huge supporter and fan of human design. And it’s through all of that exploration, that I’ve put together what works for me, how I best support myself through my own human projects. And if you want to chat more about that in detail, send me a message. But that’s not what we’re going to talk about today.

Like I said, for the next few episodes, we’re really going to focus on sharing various approaches, modalities, systems, assessments, those kinds of things to hopefully inspire your curiosity, and to help you discover more about who you are and how you show up in the world. And more important than that, help you design a self-support system that helps you shine your very, very brightest in every human project you take on.

So, let’s talk about today’s guest. He studied and applied a psychological instrument to solve team-based and project management problems. Now, that may sound very technical in all the things, but I promise you, it’s super interesting and easily applicable, and I can’t wait to talk to him more.

Matt Schlegel began studying the Enneagram in 2002. And he actually, went on to start applying it in corporate settings. So, we’re going to talk more about that today. I’d like to introduce the encouraged project community to Matt Schlegel, welcome.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thank you so much for having me here today, Amy.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I’m just so glad you’re here. I always ask people when we first get started to tell us a little about yourself, because people want to know about you, dogs, where you live, all that kind of stuff. Tell us a little bit about you.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. So, I’m a native Californian, born and raised here. I am mostly in the San Francisco Bay Area. I am living here now in Palo Alto with my wife, and I have three kids. Two are already graduated, and one is still in college. And he’s attending a local college here and living with us. So, we’re not empty nesters and we’re enjoying every minute of not being empty nesters because we love our kids.

And then, we do have a dog. Our dog is a Chiweenie probably, the cutest dog on the planet. And she’s 14 years old now, but curiously, she has Addison’s disease. And I don’t know if you know about that. But…

Amy A. Fairchild:               No.

Matt Schlegel:                   … really, it’s the same disease that JFK had. And it slows down your aging.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, wow.

Matt Schlegel:                   So, she’s 14 years old, but she’s still very spry for a 14-year-old Chiweenie. So, we love our little dog. And yeah, it’s very nice.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, wow. I had no idea that dogs could get the same types of disease as humans. I mean, that makes sense to me, but I’d never actually heard of that.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah. And apparently, it’s not uncommon. The doctor recognized it right away, “Oh, she has Addison’s disease.” At some point in her life, she just came in, it was just really the lethargic and sluggish. And it was because she didn’t have the right hormones in her and we just started giving her hormone shots and perked it right up.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Holy smokes.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Okay, so I have to ask the question, because I’ve never even heard of a Chiweenie, what exactly is a Chiweenie dog?

Matt Schlegel:                   Chihuahua and dachshund.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, my word.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Amy A. Fairchild:               So, she’s a little teeny tiny dog?

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, she’s 14 pounds.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, my goodness. Wow.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes.

Amy A. Fairchild:               What’s her name?

Matt Schlegel:                   Happy.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Happy. Well, there you go. What a perfect name for a little baby dog. I love that. But that makes me happy, priceless.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. We fell in love with her, right? She’s a rescue. We fell in love with her right away. So, and she was already named Happy. So, we’d say, “Oh, that’s perfect.”

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, wow, what a sign. I love that. I love that so much. I could probably talk about that for an hour. But…

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Let’s dive into…

Matt Schlegel:                   Everybody loves Happy.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I know, right. So, let’s dive into Enneagram. For those who don’t know what that even is, tell us what Enneagram is.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. So, I started my career as an engineer. And I was asked to become a manager. And I didn’t know anything about managing people. I only know about managing electrons. And so, but I took that to heart and I say, “Okay, let’s figure out what tools do I need to understand to help me better get teams and people to be their best?” And as you go on that journey, you’ll come across systems like StrengthsFinder, and DiSC, and Myers-Briggs.

And along that journey, I came across this thing called the Enneagram. And I’m like, “Oh, okay, it’s another one of these personality systems.” And by the time I came to the Enneagram, I had explored the other systems and my engineering brain takes them apart and put them together, and I’m like, “Oh, it’s good for this, it’s not good for that.” But the Enneagram fascinated me, because no matter how much I took it apart, there was always something more to learn. It was just deep, deep, deep, deep.

And that end, it was just so accurate because it really spoke to your underlying motivations, and really explained what gets people up in the morning to be their best selves. And so, and starting with myself, I learned more about myself in understanding the Enneagram than any of the other systems.

And so, that’s really, what the Enneagram is about in my opinion. It’s a tool, first and foremost, for really understanding what makes you tick, but then what makes other people tick, and then also, how all of those dynamics work together to be great teams and effective at solving big problems.

Amy A. Fairchild:               So, is the Enneagram, is it a test? Is it a survey? What is it? I know it explains a system overall, in terms of what’s application.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               What is the starting point for someone? What do they do to even get into being able to play it? What’s the first thing people do?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. So, the first thing, so what is it? So, what it describes is, essentially… So, Amy, are you right-handed or left-handed?

Amy A. Fairchild:               Right-handed.

Matt Schlegel:                   Okay. Now, some people are left-handed, right? And some people are ambidextrous.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yes.

Matt Schlegel:                   And just because you’re right-handed, it doesn’t mean you don’t have a left hand.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Right.

Matt Schlegel:                   And it doesn’t mean, you don’t use your left hand all the time, right? And so, but you now are aware of your handedness. And that’s the way I look at the Enneagram, is it’s essentially your personal dynamic handedness. And there are nine different styles that it describes. And we tend to have a dominant style, kind of our starting point, just like I start using my right hand.

And so, each of us starts in a certain style, but then we have access to the other styles. And depending on our starting point, we have more or less ease of access to those other styles. And as you understand the Enneagram more, then you can develop access to the other styles when you need to access them.

And so, it’s just like learning an instrument. If you’re learning the guitar, you have to learn how to use your right hand to pick it, and you have to use your left hand to do the fingerboard, right? And you get to get your hands working in concert, so that they all work together. So, I don’t know, that’s my metaphor for describing what the Enneagram is.

Amy A. Fairchild:               So, I mean, even at a more tactical level, how does a person know what style they are? Do they take a test? How do I know? I know, I’m an eight.

Matt Schlegel:                   Okay.

Amy A. Fairchild:               How would I know that?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. So, there are tests out there. And there is a test on my website, which it’s complimentary. I mean, anybody is free to use it. But I always caution people because I’m a six, and I’m cautious. So, I caution people that when you take the test, you’re going to just answer a bunch of questions, and then it’s going to share with you what your highest scoring types on. And usually, of the nine, you score highly on two or three types.

So, for instance, I know I’m a six, but the first time I took the test, my highest scoring type was eight, because I was in an environment where eight behaviors were encouraged. And I just had to be an eight all the time where I was. And so, as you’re going through, do I this? Yes. Do I do this? Yes. Do I do? Right? You’re just taking it off because I’m behaving like the environment is inducing me to behave.

But then, once you have those top two or three high scoring types, then you need to go through this process of a little bit of introspection. So, you read about the different styles, you read about of those two or three styles, what is important to those? And then, you start to figure out, “Oh, okay. Well, I do tend to be more cautious, and I do tend to think about the future.” And that sounds more like a six than an eight. So, maybe I’m a six.

And then, you just try that on for size and just see how it feels. And then, you come to it. So, that’s one way to do it by yourself, or you can just ask somebody who’s close to you and say, “Which of these two am I?” And they’ll look at it and say, “Oh, you’re this one?”

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yeah, I like that. I mean, there are a couple of things that you mentioned, that I think are really important to call out. The first is, that there is an assessment that a person can take to get an initial identification of what style they might have. And to your point, you can find them anywhere, but I’m sure yours is well vetted, and well-thought the one on your website. So, I would definitely send people there if they want to learn more.

I think the second thing that I want to make sure people catch is that, if I understood you correctly, your results can be influenced by environment. So, it’s just the same as the Myers-Briggs, although my Myers-Briggs has been exactly the same over time, which is very interesting. I am an INTJ. But the DiSC profile for example, for me, I’ve taken several times in my career and it changed because of environment.

So, I think it is important to let people know that if you decide to explore this insight tool, if you will, to help become better at your human projects, or interacting with vetters, or whatever. To keep in mind, like you said, it can be influenced by environment.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I love that you said too, “If in doubt, ask someone who’s around you all the time. Because often, people who are not close to circle, we are our most authentic selves with. And so, if in doubt, ask someone who knows you, I really like that. And not a lot of, at least in my experience, not a lot of those assessments give you that additional insight that says, “Hey, if you don’t really know for sure, go ask your buddy or your partner, or your best friend or whatever.” So, I love that you said that.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah.

Amy A. Fairchild:               So, if a person knows, like, I’ve taken the assessment, I’m taking a couple of times, because I was curious because I wanted to see if it would be the same over time for me. And the reason is, for me, I’ve worked very, very diligently over the last few years to try to show up as my most authentic self in every context, in every environment.

And so, I was curious to see if the Enneagram as an example, would over time, demonstrate the same feedback I expected it to. And it actually, did for me, because I’ve done some of that work. So, I’m an eighth, which is I understand is more assertive, or more focused, or you obviously can explain it better than I.

Matt Schlegel:                   Sure.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And it was interesting to learn that because I already knew it about myself. But what was more interesting was to understand how it might interact with other types. So, talk more specifically about how understanding who you are from an Enneagram perspective might help you in specific interactions with others.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. So, and by the way, did you see Amy Poehler on Seth Meyers show the other day?

Amy A. Fairchild:               No, I didn’t.

Matt Schlegel:                   They talked about the Enneagram.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Really?

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, Amy Poehler had a birthday party, and she invited some of her friends over and they all studied the Enneagram. And then, before coming on the show with Seth, then Amy had Seth take the test as well. And they figured out what his style was. So, it turns out, Amy Poehler is an eighth.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   And Seth Meyers is a three. And so, we got to see them interact as a three and eight, and talk about that. So, just as an aside…

Amy A. Fairchild:               Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah. So, it’s fascinating. So, yeah, each type brings a certain dynamic to team, or to a group, or to a family. And as you understand your own type, you’ll start to see how that dynamic, influences those around you, and how those around you are interacting with your dynamic and bringing their dynamic to the situation.

So, that’s one of the great things about the Enneagram is that, it really provides a framework for understanding these interactions and dynamics. And it’s fascinatingly accurate. And one of the things that I came across as I was first studying the Enneagram, there’s a great website called Enneagram Institute.

And buried in there, it says, “Well, if you’re a type X, and you’re married to a type Y, then click here to find out what the dynamics are.” And by that time, I had figured out my style, and I’d figured out my lifestyle. And I went in there, and I read it, and I’m like, “How do they know was?” It was so spot on.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Wow.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, so, and another, just to follow up on another thing that you said was, and one of the things I really like about the Enneagram is that, whereas the other systems tend to be somewhat static, the Enneagram has dynamics built into it. And if you look at the Enneagram diagram, it’s a circle with a bunch of lines in the middle. And each point on that circle, each number is connected to two other numbers. And those lines are called your path of security and insecurity. And so, when you’re in your secure state, you start to look like another number.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   And when you’re in your insecure state, you start to look like the number in opposite direction. So, for me as a six, my secure state looks like the nine. And my insecure state looks like the three. And so, and we can talk about the different dynamics. But I’ll say that for the six, the underlying issue as it is with all of the people in the head group the five, six, seven is anxiety.

And so, I’m essentially processing my anxiety. And so, when my anxiety starts to come up in my insecure state, I get very focused, starting to make to do lists and getting stuff done, and really focused and not paying attention to stuff around me, because I need to get this stuff done in order to get my anxiety to go down. That dynamic looks a lot like a type three dynamic.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. And then, as my anxiety levels go down, then that filter of anxiety is lifted, that fog is lifted, and I can look around and I can see other people and what’s going on. And I start to get this much broader perspective of everything around me, and start to just more connect with everybody around me. And that looks like the type nine behavior.

And so, one of the great things about the Enneagram is, it actually gives us a path to what does my healthy self look like? How am I behaving in my healthiest self? And if you focus on that and build muscle in moving towards your healthiest self, one, it allows you access to that. But also, I find that once you’re accessing your healthiest self, you have better access to all the different styles as you need them.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I love that you speak or you speak, you spoke specifically about essentially awareness. I mean, once you had awareness that when you’re in this certain situation, you tend to have these behaviors, at least for me, awareness gives me that moment of objectivity where I can go, “Okay, something’s not right, because I’m behaving this way. My past and indications tell me it’s because of this, how can I adjust?” What a powerful thing to simply have awareness.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And I think, that is the essential power of a lot of these tools, depending on what resonates with you. But certainly, Enneagram as an example, having awareness of what my healthy state is, as you said, and what my less than healthy in my optimum over healthy states might be, if you will. And it’s incredible awareness to be able to develop objectivity.

And that’s one of the things I’ve talked about in human projects is, let’s say you’re building a house that your human project, and you’re having anxiety or frustration around the builder being late with the sheetrock, knowing that you perhaps react a certain way in this situations can not only help you maintain sanity, but also helps your interactions with the builder, so that you’re not inadvertently putting all of your junk on the builder and getting them spun up when it could really have a civilized conversation.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, exactly.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Fascinating, fascinating.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes.

Amy A. Fairchild:               One of the things that I’ve really tuned into with Enneagram in other styles is, the extent to which other styles want to be what I would call seen and heard publicly versus not as an example, in team meetings. So, as an eight, I tend to be very direct. I tend to make decisions quickly in a group. And I tend to be a fairly decent leader, like, “Okay, we’re going in this direction, let’s go.” And the unknown doesn’t freak me out. I’m like, “I don’t know. But we’re going to go and we’re going to get there.”

And people who don’t communicate that way I’ve learned, either won’t speak up, or they’ll speak up afterward, or they’ll just kind of tune out altogether. And so, one of the things I learned as a result is, I specifically engage every person in the conversation when I’m leading a meeting as an example.

And if maybe, they don’t want to speak up in the meeting, I’ll say, “Put it in the chat,” or I’ll say, “Send me a note afterward,” or I’ll say, “Send me a text while we’re talking.”

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Talk a little bit about how people can get to a place like that, knowing Enneagram. What are some other examples where people can use that information to help themselves and others around them?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. So, you brought up just a great example. And it’s a pretty common situation for type eight leaders. So, there’s three groups, right? There’s the instinctual group, which is the eight, nine, one. There’s the feeling group, which is the two, three, four.

And then, like I said before, the five, six, seven is in the anxiety group, or the head group. And so, each one of those types has a different starting point. And you can almost think of it as the Wizard of Oz, you remember? The Lion wants guts.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yes.

Matt Schlegel:                   So, that’s the instinctive group. The Tin Man wants a heart, so that’s the feeling group. And then, the Scarecrow wants a brain, that’s the head group. And that an underlying issue, each one of these has an underlying issue that is driving them.

And so, and the other beautiful thing about the Wizard of Oz, I’m just a little sidetrack here is that, we all have these inside of us. And so, Dorothy essentially represents our consciousness. And she is going through life, going through her journey, following her yellow brick road, being counseled by these three intelligences. Our gut intelligence, our feeling intelligence, in our head intelligence.

And all of us, all four of us, each of us has all four of these intelligences in us, and we’re all on our journey. So, Wizard of Oz is just a great metaphor for what’s that dynamic is. But just get back to that example that you said, for type eights, they’re in the instinctive group.

So, that when I say instinctive, they already know what to do. Their instincts already inform them what to do. They don’t have to think about things. For me, it’s like, you wake up in the morning, you’re taking a shower, and all of a sudden, “Oh, I got to do this.” It just comes to your brain, you never even thought about it. You’re just like, “Oh, I got to do this.” That’s not me all the time, but it’s the way eights are all the time. It’s like, I know what to do.

And the problem is, the rest of us aren’t there. And so, the eighth leader who already knows what to do, just has the inclination to want to get to action, and say, “Well, let’s just do this, let’s go.” While the rest of us are going, “Okay, really?” And so, what we learn is that, is to just not say anything to eight. It’s just like, they’re going to tell us what to do. So, let’s just wait until they tell us what to do. And we’ll do it.

And so, type eight leaders that I’ve coached, who, when they complain about this to me, it’s like, “Why don’t they ever take any initiative? Why don’t they think for themselves?” I’m like, “Well, it’s probably, because you’re just telling them what to do, and they’re just going to wait.” And so, then I take them through, how they can allow a team to come to their own conclusion, and so powerful, because if the type eight leader just takes a step back and lets the team figure it out for themselves, and then comes to the type eight leader. The type eight leader generally, doesn’t care what they do. They just want them to do something. And then, we’ll just figure it out. It’s fine, just do something.

And so, if the type eight can hold themselves back and let them figure it out, they come up and say, “Let’s do this.” And the type eight will say, “Yeah, go ahead, do it.” And then, they go and do it. But the beautiful thing about it is that, it’s so empowering for the team because now it’s their idea. They have a vested interest in making it successful.

And the type eight recognizing this can say, “Wow, I can get them to be so much more motivated, if I just allow them to figure it out and do it themselves.” So, it benefits both sides, I think.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yes.

Matt Schlegel:                   Does that make sense?

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, yes. And what you described are some of the challenges that I had early on, frankly, as in my early profession, as a leader in different organizations, I faced that. And thankfully, I had really wonderful mentors and people around me to help me navigate that. What I found interesting that you said, and I want to talk a little bit more about was, when you talked about the response that some eight leaders have in terms of, “Oh, my gosh, I wish people would just do something, why are they not motivated? Or why don’t they have any gumption?”

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And I think the point of that is, as humans, we tend to see other people through the lens of our own understanding, right? So, if I’m that way, everybody must be that way, right?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               If I deal with problems this way, why don’t you deal with them that way? That’s the way I deal with them. And so, how do you coach people, eights or threes, or twos, or nines? Everyone is at risk of having that lens?

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes.

Amy A. Fairchild:               How do you coach people to begin to understand or begin to work on changing the lens, nor assuming?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. And this is exactly why, if you’re a leader of people, the Enneagram is the best tool I’ve found to use to answer that question. Because one, it allows you to understand your own lens, better than any system. But then, once you take the time to really go through and understand, what is it like to be a one.

Put yourself in the one shoes, or the twos shoes, or the threes shoes, and the Enneagram tells you what’s important to them. And it’s like, where is it in my life were getting it exactly right is really important to me? Okay, now I’m starting to get the sense of what it’s like to be a one all the time.

So, I know now that, if there’s something that requires that we get absolutely right, the type one is going to be the best one. Also, and type eights are they’re like, “It’s good enough, let’s go, come on.” Right? That’s exactly the opposite of type one. It’s never good enough.

And so, there’s often a lot of friction between ones and eights on that front. And so, a type eight leader working with the type one just has to, one recognize that the type one needs to have all the information, and enough time to process it, to get it to some level, and then you just coach them. It’s never going to be perfect.

So, let’s establish what that line is going to look like, so that you can get there, and then we can move forward. And that would be the coaching that you could give to your type one teammate. And all of these super rich discussions can happen, especially if the entire team has the vocabulary of the Enneagram, because it’s one of the most powerful things.

If everybody knows their Enneagram style, now you have this rich vocabulary to use, to have these really meaningful conversations about how to get stuff done, what’s good enough, and all that. And everybody will understand it, because everybody’s now talking the same language.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I love that you described it that way. And to just segue for a moment, I think it’s important for listeners who maybe aren’t in a team or corporate context. I want to make sure that we’re connecting the dots and that, when Matt and I are talking about team, team could be a corporate context, team could be your family, team could be your friend group, team could be your volunteer organization. Whatever group of people you are engaging with to achieve your human project can be the team.

So, I want to make sure that’s clear to people because I get how sometimes if we’re talking about a specific example that doesn’t apply to you, it may not feel like it’s a fit. But I absolutely, believe based on even what Matt just confirmed in terms of, if everyone in your team, if you will, everyone in that group of people has awareness of their own style.

What a huge benefit you have already in being aware to develop better communication, to set better boundaries, to have better priorities, to move with speed, all the things, and to have greater accountability, frankly. One of the things we talk about in human projects is, how do you develop self-accountability?

And some of that comes from knowing how you interact with others and inviting others to hold you accountable. What are some of the things on the flip side, so knowing yourself so that you can engage with people in a way that feels good to them? And also, gets them to do the things that you need them to, or would like for them to do, how does Enneagram help us in times of conflict?

Matt Schlegel:                   Great. One, it allows you to like, if you know your team, and you know their styles, and you recognize when they have moved for whatever reason, right? It could be something at home. But you can recognize when people are off, and they’ve moved in their path of insecurity, right?

So, one, just having that awareness, because then you could not necessarily talk about the thing you’re trying to get done, but you can just now maybe have a different conversation, like, “Hey, what’s going on? Is everything okay? What’s going on in your life?” Because if they’re in their state of insecurity, then everything else is going to be fraught.

So, number one thing is, bring them back to their normal self, or their healthy self, right? So, that then you can have a conversation with them without it triggering intense emotions, right? And once those emotions start to surface, then you’re probably aware, your amygdala takes over. It’s called amygdala hijack. And now, your emotional brain is in-charge, and it’s disconnecting from your thinking brain, and it’s not going to be good. So, you might go up on stage and hit somebody, I don’t know.

So, you just want to make sure that you don’t further stress them and bring them back. So, and then, once everybody is kind of in that calm state, then one, the conflict just might disappear. It might just evaporate. I don’t know what I was thinking, I’m sorry, or I do have this problem here, and I don’t think this other person’s listening to me. Do you recognize this situation, then you can have kind of a calmer conversation than one where everybody is emotionally charged?

So, that would be my advice, just first and foremost. And that’s in general, it’s not necessarily Enneagram related. But the Enneagram does give us more clues of when people are in their insecure state, and how to bring them back in.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I love that. What I love even more about it that you didn’t explicitly say but you implied is, it creates space, if you will, for us not to take things personally. So, to see if I understand you, so I used to work with a woman who, when she was feeling things were out of control, or she didn’t know what was going on, she would tend to micromanage me.

And I knew the minute I was being micromanaged that she just wasn’t feeling to use your words secure, whatever that is. And so, and once I learned that from her through conversations and understanding the type that she is, I was able to say, “Hey, this is what’s going on, that signaling to me that either I’m not giving you information or there’s something else bigger that we need to discuss.” It helped me, because I didn’t take it personally. I mean, nobody wants to be micromanaged. Well, I don’t know if nobody, very few people want to be micromanaged, right?

Matt Schlegel:                   Especially eights.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I know, especially eights. But very few people want to be micromanaged. And so, I didn’t take it personally. The old me might have spun off into, “Gosh, I must think I’m incompetent, I can’t do anything right, whatever.” But I didn’t take it personally and was able to open a conversation. So, I love that and that applies in so many different situations.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Giving us an opportunity not to take something personally by observing a behavior, and then saying, “Hey, I’m observing this. I feel like you need something that you’re not getting, what can I provide?”

Matt Schlegel:                   Exactly.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I love that so much.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yup, that’s a great example. Yeah, and you just don’t know. I mean, it’s probably not you. I mean, we tend to attribute other people’s behaviors to us, firsts.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I guess.

Matt Schlegel:                   But usually, it’s not us. It’s usually, something else that’s going on that’s causing it. Maybe, it’s their boss is pressuring them, or they have some internal pressure they’re putting on themselves or whatever, right? So, that’s such a great example, Amy.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I like too that that really works in relationships outside the workplace. My mom, for example, I think is a sixth, I’m not entirely sure. But I think, especially after speaking with you, today. I’m getting more sure that she might be. I’m going to have her take the Enneagram when we’re done…

Matt Schlegel:                   Awesome.

Amy A. Fairchild:               … because I want to know for sure. But I know enough about at a high level, the types to at least have an inkling of what might be the concern. And so, my mom and I have a really great relationship because of my awareness. Not that I’m perfect or anything, but just knowing that it could be something besides me.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               That it’s not all about me, it’s pretty great.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And that’s very empowering. So, if a person can find out their type, and then they start to have some awareness, and then they begin to understand the types of the people around them, so that they can interact in more meaningful ways, what if a person were initially just curious to leverage the power of Enneagram, whether they’re in a leadership position or not, what would you say are the top one or two things they should explore first, once they learn what type they are, or what profile they are?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. So, what I would suggest, and you alluded to this earlier is that, it’s great to start off your exploration of the Enneagram with people that you’re close to, your friends and your family, have conversations with them. In general, most people are quite curious about it.

And then, that allows you, because you already understand what that relationship looks like, and now you’ll know your type, you’ll know the type of a friend or family member. And then, you’ll have kind of a model for what that relationship looks like, good and bad, where things are, goes super well, and where things don’t go well. And then, you just start to develop that overall understanding. And thankfully, in my family, we do have one of every type.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, wow.

Matt Schlegel:                   I know. We just lucked out. And so, pretty much, in my family, we have several families that live in our town, and between all of us, we have all the types. So, it’s fascinating to see all those dynamics. And then, you can really understand how each is showing up, how each is contributing, who’s quiet, who’s talkative, and all of that.

So, that’s the starting point. And then, with that model now, then you can start to look at these, your interactions outside of your immediate family, and you could start to see the same patterns start to show up among the interactions of all the people in your social circles. And then, you can build and with the people who are open and receptive, and not everybody is, so you have to be a little cautious.

But for the people who are open to it, have the conversation with them, and share what you’re learning and share a little bit about, what you’ve learned about yourself and see if they’re interested in exploring it with you, and then build on that. In that way, you can start to build up these muscles that will serve you in whatever role that you play, when you’re interacting or working with people.

Amy A. Fairchild:               You bring up a really interesting point about whether people are open. And I think, oftentimes, well, I’m not going to say oftentimes. Sometimes, people will take an assessment like Enneagram. And all of a sudden, they have just enough information to be dangerous, and they become the diagnoser, if you will, of everyone else. So, they use it as a diagnostic, “Oh, well, this is your problem. Oh, well, this is where you need to work on stuff.”

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And I want to caution folks, I’ve done it. I’ll admit it early on when I first learned…

Matt Schlegel:                   Guilty.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Exactly. When I first learned about some of this stuff, I thought I was so great.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yup, yup.

Amy A. Fairchild:               But I think it is important to point out, that some people are not open to that. And it may not mean anything other than, it’s so new to them, they just don’t have enough information to respond. And so, I always tell people, when you’re exploring, you’re getting curious about new self-development, or new self-exploration tools, that’s not everyone’s bag of chips, right?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And it’s okay, it is okay. Don’t take offense.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. And even to be more blunt about it, the Enneagram tells you things about yourself that some people just don’t want to hear.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yes, yes it does.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. And so, when you really get to know yourself at that level, there is some pain associated with it as well. It’s like, “Oh, God, that’s why I do that, or I hate that about myself,” or whatever, right?

Amy A. Fairchild:               Right.

Matt Schlegel:                   And so, people do have self defense mechanisms, that just like, “Oh, I don’t want to go there,” right?

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   So, if they’re not ready for it, they’re not ready for it. So, then…

Amy A. Fairchild:               Right.

Matt Schlegel:                   … let’s not push it and just move on. And some people will come to it, some people won’t, that’s fine. I think that for those who do, and those who do take it to heart and do that work, you come out on the other side, so much better prepared for anything that life’s going to throw at.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Yes, yes.

Matt Schlegel:                   It’s just amazing. And if you’re really, interested in being a leader and taking leadership roles, then I can think of no better tool, single tool that you could learn to understand the team dynamics, than the Enneagram.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Oh, I agree. I love that you said, you just have to keep exploring. I think that’s the beauty of all of these things in particular, the Enneagram is just keep asking and keep exploring. You did mention about holding a mirror, if you will, up to yourself, like this assessment can do and others can do, but this one got me in a couple of places. I was like, “Whoa, I don’t really like what that’s telling me right now.”

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               When you have a client, who comes up against something like a wall, that’s just really uncomfortable for me, what do you tell a client in that situation? What types of guidance do you give them to either be open to looking at that? Or working on it more? Or exploring it? What kinds of things do you recommend?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. So, for the people who aren’t ready to do the deep introspection, then what I would do is just talk in general terms about, just general dynamics. These are the types of dynamics that I’m seeing. If I’m working with a leader say, and they’re trying to resolve some issue, and we can just look at the dynamics going on, and I can pretty easily say, “Well, it’s really common for type X and type Y to have that type of dynamic.”

So, I’m not saying your type X, and I’m not saying that person’s type Y, but let’s just look at that model, and then how would we take some steps to unwind that conflict? And then, let’s just try that and see what happens. And by doing that, you can hopefully demonstrate some value to the person you’re coaching that, oh, there is something to this system. I can use this system to resolve issues and without ever having them actually go in to figure out, “Oh, yeah, I really am a type…”

Amy A. Fairchild:               Right, right. So, to take that one step further than, would things like, so let’s say a person is open. So, for me, and I don’t know if I have the exact words, that came back on my assessment, because I don’t have it in front of me. But one of the things that I contend to do being an eight is come across as terse, right? Because I’m so direct.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And so, when I first learned that about myself, I was hurt, because I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, I’m not terse at all. That’s never, ever my intention. I never ever intend to be short with people and that kind of thing.” And so, what I did as an example, is I asked a couple of friends, “Hey, in these situations, how do I come across?” And then, I went and I journaled about it.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               And I’m like, so when I do these things, people perceive it this way.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Am I still comfortable doing those things? And am I okay with how people react? Or do I want to change perhaps some of my delivery knowing that I can tend to come across that way? Is that what you might recommend to someone who’s open to changing? Maybe, asking some people around them, and then journaling? Or what will be some things?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. So, it will depend on the person and what they’re comfortable with doing. But it’s just so interesting you brought up this example, because I’m a six. And I love context. And I want to give all the context, so that you can see all the logic before you get to the punch line. The eight wants the punch line. They don’t want the context.

And so, when I’m dealing… Now, I know and this is common problem with people who type eight leaders are very common leaders, and people who had struggled with how to communicate to a type eight, and get to the point, that’s what I say, just keep it. If you can communicate in bullet points, just communicate in bullet points, keep it to like a text. That’s how you want to communicate with eight, because they already into it, the context. They already have that.

If there’s a piece missing to them, they’ll ask. Don’t bother them with all the context until they ask, just give them the bullet point. And that just, it’s just so helpful in communicating with eights, that style. And then, conversely, eights have to recognize that not everybody else communicate some bullet points. And other people, send out these long emails.

So, what you need to do with those people is just say, “Could you put the executive summary at the top of the email? I appreciate all that context, and I know that’s how you like to communicate, but just like, put the executive summary at the top, and then put in those stuff?” So, just knowing these tendencies of communication styles between different people, then you can make suggestions for how to communicate better with each other.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Sure.

Matt Schlegel:                   And so, that’s one thing. The other thing that, and I explore this in my book is that, each one of us has a mental focus on different points on a timeline. Some people are always thinking about the past. Some people are always thinking about the future. Some people are focused more on the present.

And when I watch people have different types, and I know where each types mental focus is, and they’re like talking to each other, it’s like, this person’s talking about the future. This person is talking about the past, they are having completely different conversations.

It is so amazing. If you overlay just the element of time on the conversation and where people’s focus is on that timeline. Just understanding that will help resolve a lot of communication issues and conflicts.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Makes a lot of sense. I love that. So, we’ve covered a lot of things and a lot of goodness for people to go explore more with how can folks get in touch with you and learn more about what you do?

Matt Schlegel:                   Thank you very much. I’ve just loved this conversation. And believe me, we’re just scratching the surface here.

Amy A. Fairchild:               I know.

Matt Schlegel:                   Because I wrote a book on the Enneagram. But there’s a lot of books on the Enneagram. And I didn’t need to write another book on the Enneagram. But I asked this question, why are Enneagram types, numbers? And it occurred to me that their numbers, because those dynamics that we’ve been talking about, are actually, the order in which people solve problems.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Interesting.

Matt Schlegel:                   So, that’s what I wrote the book about. And so, you can find more information about that. It’s called Teamwork 9.0, and the nine is the nine Enneagram types. And I talk about that on my website, evolutionaryteams.com, all one word, and that’s the best place to find me.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Fantastic, fantastic. And folks, I will put all of that information in the show notes if you did not catch it. If you’re on the treadmill or something like that, it’ll be in the show notes. Matt, thank you so, so much for being here today. This has been really, really interesting. And we could do a six-hour podcast with you talking.

Matt Schlegel:                   We can keep talking, I know. Thank you, Amy. I really appreciate it. Thanks. And it was so great to talk to you today.

Amy A. Fairchild:               Thank you. So, what are your next steps with today’s topic? The first is, I would ask you to take action today. Why not go to Matt’s website and take the Enneagram assessment, find out which type you are. And then, as you head into reflection today, the ahas, the oh nos, and the yippies. The ahas, or what did you learn? What insights did you get today? The oh, nos or what questions do you still have? And the yippies, or what can you celebrate?

Ask yourself if you could play a game with yourself, who might or what might be the types of Enneagram profiles of the people around you, and just see what you think. And then, if you get really curious, ask one of them to go take the assessment as well and see if you are right.

Let’s continue the conversation. You can find the Encourage Project at the encourageproject.com. You can find me on Instagram at the_encourage_project. And as always, you can send me a note, say hello at the encourageproject.com. That’s it for today’s really, really interesting episode. I’m really glad that you’re here. I’m happy that I’m well. And I look forward to connecting with you guys soon. Be safe, be well, and shine.

 

Filed Under: Enneagram, Podcast

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