• Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar
  • Skip to footer

Schlegel Consulting

Evolutionary Team Effectiveness

  • Home
  • Services
  • Success Stories
  • FAQ
  • Blog
  • Contact
  • This Book’s For You

Blog

Climate Journalist Betsy Rosenberg Shares the Feelings that Impassioned Her to Found GreenTV.com

August 8, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Award-winning national broadcast journalist and co-founder, host and producer of Green TV, Betsy Rosenberg, focused on getting corporate media to pay attention to the climate crisis for years and felt alone in her mission.  Undaunted, her feelings about the crisis motivated her to persist. Now she’s finding more liked-minded people with a similar vision to have a media outlet – GreenTV.com – devoted to climate solutions.  GreenTV.com highlights climate solution entrepreneurs who Betsy calls Solutionaries.

Subscribe to GreenTV.com — https://www.youtube.com/c/GreenTVcom — help get the channel to 1000 subscribers so they can livestream!

#Leadership, #Commitment, #EmotionalIntelligence, #EQ, #climatechange

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are engaging with their feelings as a leadership tool for both inspiration and motivation. Today, I’m speaking with award-winning national broadcast journalist, Betsy Rosenberg, who now hosts and produces greentv.com. Betsy provides ways for her audience to take action to address the climate crisis. And now for the conversation. I’m delighted to be speaking with Betsy Rosenberg, co-founder, host, and producer of GreenTV. Betsy is an award-winning national broadcast journalist who spent the first half of her career as a reporter and anchor with the CBS Radio News network. In 1997, Betsy launched Trash Talk minutes, the first green programming to air on a corporate media outlet. Betsy’s also a writer having written many articles and contributed to the book Climate Abandoned: We’re on the Endangered List. Her latest project greentv.com focuses on presenting actionable solutions to the climate crisis. Betsy, thank you for joining me today, and welcome.

Betsy Rosenberg:             Thank you so much, Matt, for having me. It’s been fun being friends on Facebook but face-to-face is always much better.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes, indeed, indeed. Well, I’d like to start off and just ask you how you’re feeling now about the climate crisis?

Betsy Rosenberg:             That’s probably the biggest question you could ask. Because if you ask me how I feel about my daughter, who’s getting married this year, it’s love, love, love. Okay, next question, climate. Wow, it’s complicated, isn’t it? It’s a love-hate relationship. I am as passionate as the day I started. And as you mentioned, I started out with garbage and then moved to global warming and thought, wow, that’s even more scary and important than what’s going into our landfills, what’s coming out of our tailpipes and factory pipes. And I’ve been covering it a long time. It’s been a long, lonely, expensive, frustrating beat, but at the same time the most exciting educating experience I’ve ever had, and that’s because I’ve been interviewing what I call the solutionaries. People who are in the forefront of their greenfield and that everybody, not just climate but oceans, and plastic, and food, and fashion, and energy, and the economy, and everything under the sun because everything needs to change.

We need to transition to a much more sustainable energy system economy. We’re really at that moment right now as an inflection point where people are starting to wake up and smell the carbon, as I say, and we need to get off our gases and we need to do it yesterday. And it’s no small job and it’s not going to be easy. How do I feel right now? Good news, bad news. The good news is the bad news. The bad news is, extreme weather can no longer be denied, it cannot be ignored, even though there’s still some who are trying. We can maybe touch on that. I call them the deniasaurs, shame on them, especially at this moment. The middle of 2022 with record heat waves, and droughts, and floods, and that’s just in the last two weeks.

At this moment, people are starting to be appropriately concerned and that’s the good news, but it’s too bad it took the bad news. Meaning, the extreme weather that was predicted for decades down the road by climate scientists is here already. That scares that you know what out of me, and I’m sure you and everybody who’s working in this area. So I guess we’re going to get it all over with quickly. Either the transition or the end.

Matt Schlegel:                   Well, so you just used the word scared. And when I hear that word scared, I think of anxiety. What I’ve found is that there are really three main feelings that people come to the climate crisis with. It’s either sadness or grief, depression, that’s one category. The other one is-

Betsy Rosenberg:             I feel that, by the way, daily. I feel all that too.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. The other one is anger. And then the other one is anxiety. It’s uh.

Betsy Rosenberg:             Nothing good, nothing good. Well, that’s not true, there is some … We’ll get to them.

Matt Schlegel:                   And I think people who’ve been in this for a long time cycle through all of these. But what would you say is your starting point? Which one do you think really drives you?

Betsy Rosenberg:             The passion comes from, it’s just not okay to let this precious planet die, and especially on our watch. I’m a baby boomer, young end of baby boomers. And when I was growing up we were hiding under our desk fear of nuclear bombs, that was the big threat. Those desks would’ve probably not done much, but now we have a much more real present danger and it’s coming from us. And it’s not our fault, we humans, we didn’t know what we brought. But now that we know it should be stop the processes, the government should be handing out solar panels. It should just be all hands on decks. The fact that in a big way we’re not there yet, it’ll be real interesting to see what happens next. Are we going to really ramp up quickly like we need to because it is late in the game? That part drives me crazy.

I’m not afraid from my life because I probably … No, I won’t say the worst of it, but I have a daughter who’s 27 getting married this year, and hopes to have a child or two. She was an only child so I certainly wanted a grandchild or two. I have such dread. And then I get angry especially because of the deniasaurs still in media saying, “It’s a hoax, it’s good for you,” and all that crap. My daughter’s a first-world privileged person. Think of the people in the global south. I get so angry and I just say, “This is just not okay.”

And it’s not okay that my former industry, broadcast news, for so long, too long was silent really. You would barely hear climate change mentioned. Now they do. It’s almost like they’re so proud of themselves that they discovered its news. I could’ve told you that when I was pitching you a show on solutions CNN seven years ago, five years ago, three years ago. NBC two years ago. But okay. They really resisted, that’s another part of the story. But the fact that it is finally getting covered but not nearly enough. It’s really the tip of the melting iceberg as I say.

I’ve done some 1200 radio shows that adds up to a crazy number. 4,500 interviews during the last 20 years. Where was CNN? They had much more access than little old Betsy Rosenberg to these stories, to these guests. And the fact that I’ve been pitching them, including directly to Jeff Zucker twice at Sundance, cornered him in the CNN VIP lounge. There’s arrogance there and there’s ignorance there. They don’t know what they don’t know. They don’t think it’s going to be popular, they don’t want to alienate their fossil fuel advertisers. So they’re covering it more now than they did but it’s not nearly enough. And to show them that we started GreenTV, which we’re hoping will be a 24/7 green news network, GNN, and we’ll show them how much they’re missing. Let’s see, what was I answering?

Matt Schlegel:                   Well, no, no. I mean, that’s perfect. I mean, you really led right into what my next question was going to be. You’re having all these feelings and you’ve gone through all of these cycles. How are they guiding you today? How are you directing that passion that you’re having and where are you putting that energy into?

Betsy Rosenberg:             Well, the good news, Matt, for me is I was doing it alone for all those years and that was really hard. Everyone from friends to family just thought, oh, that’s really nice that you’re doing that, Betsy. Although my family not so much, they thought I went off the deep end which I guess I did. Because once you know what you know it’s hard to make anything else important other than loved ones, family. And for a while, they didn’t know, but I said, “No, you guys are my,” … This is why I’m doing it, I’m doing it for my daughter’s future grandchildren, everybody’s future grandchildren.

What has really kept me going is again, this is just not okay. But the fact that people are waking up now and the fact that I have found a team, GreenTV found me about a year ago. And so we have group of 10 volunteers, two young college interns, the rest of us all have experience in environmental work in some capacity, some production experience, some journalist experience, and together we’re growing. Everyone who comes is invited to our meetings because they have a similar vision, It joins up. It’s sort of like the pied piper. So we know we’ve got something that’s needed right now and that’s exciting. So that’s the positive part of the last long, lonely, expensive two and a half decades.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Thank you so much for your persistence and your ability to work through all these feelings that you’ve had and end up being so energized and productive out of it. I’m like what is your secret for doing that because-

Betsy Rosenberg:             You don’t want it, you don’t want to know.

Matt Schlegel:                   I want some of that.

Betsy Rosenberg:             You do not want to know. It’s a double-edged sword this passion really so I can’t turn it off, okay. Even if I wanted to, and I’ve at times thought this is crazy I didn’t choose this, it chose me. I didn’t plan to do this the rest of my career. I didn’t plan to spend a small fortune, all my savings and then some, and had to move to Texas because we spent a lot. We lived in the Bay Area. I mean, that’s the level of dedication and it’s not unique to me. Like I said, once you know. So thank you for acknowledging it. And there’s plenty of people who are equally passionate and dedicated. I think I’m really the only one in mainstream media who has been really banging on the door for this long because if there was anybody else I would’ve teamed up with them long ago happily.

So I really pride myself on having been a real thorn in the side of the network news executives who, in my opinion, are not leaders at all. They’re just wrong to make it a popularity thing. Pull show people who aren’t interested in climate change. I pitched to CNN a series for their original series department, meet the solutionaries, where we’d go all across the country. What I’m doing now but on Zoom because of COVID, and interview the people who are in the forefront of their fields who are absolutely excited, jazzed up, just so passionate, and charming, and knowledgeable, and we should be tapping into their wisdom now. So that’s what I offered them and they said, “No, we don’t think our viewers would be interested in the six-part series on the environment.” I said, “How do you know because you’ve never had it?” And I had a show on Air America, which probably nobody remembers, but it was a liberal radio network. Someone named Rachel Maddow was on opposite. One of us went on to TV fame and fortune.

Matt Schlegel:                   I still listen to Sam Seder.

Betsy Rosenberg:             Oh my God. Okay. Sam was on there. Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank. Al Franken was on there and a few other people. Janeane Garofalo. That was 2004 to 2007. I had a show called Eco Talk and it was one hour of two or three segments so I’d find people to interview, and I never had a shortage and I will never have a shortage because there’s so many problems, and there’s so many solutions, and there’s so many wonderful solutionaries who know exactly what we need to do. And the fact that they’ve not been introduced to the mainstream public other than an occasional TV interview or maybe a earth day longer segment, it’s not even a show, though we did one on climate change Earth Day a year or two ago. It can’t be once a year.

We plan mother earth every day, every hour, every minute. If you don’t believe me, try going without food, air, or water, get back to me. It’s just insanely out of proportion to not only the size of the problem, challenge, which is epic but the importance of it. I mean, it almost sounds ridiculous. We’ve got humanity is hanging in the balance. Hello, can anyone stop tennis or lunch or whatever job you hate, come join us we need you. It’s been surreal for sure. The good news is, as people wake up, those of us who have been not able to sleep and lying awake too much are going okay, okay, thank you, come aboard, now we can get a little more sleep because you’re getting a little less sleep. And if everybody did their little part we could turn it around. No, it’s too late to stop climate change, we could slow the worst of it.

And it’s not just climate, it’s the oceans, its extinction, its biodiversity, it’s our food system. Water is the new oil. We’ve been saying that for 20 years, now it’s happening. I was in Italy last month, and we’ve been lucky enough to travel there a few times. I was on a panel there about immobility and the transition to the electric grid because it was utility companies and oil and gas managers. That was an interesting audience, not my usual. I could not even enjoy going out to dinner because the river-

Matt Schlegel:                   It’s completely dry.

Betsy Rosenberg:             That usually runs through Rome is almost dry. And I saw that and know what it pretends, not that I’m the only one, but I just was sick to my stomach. I lost my appetite, I really couldn’t even eat. Pizza and pasta in Italy. I mean, it was alarming. The day of our panel, which was Wednesday, June 22nd, the Italian government announced a state of … What do they call it? Not emergency but something with the state. State of calamity, I guess that’s the translation. It is extreme. And that was before the second major heat wave. And while we were away, of course, it was happening in the states and we’ve since had another one. I live in Texas now, and it’s been in the triple digits for the last two or three weeks. Luckily for me, I’m not there.

It’s dangerous, it’s scary, it’s happening. The government should be handing out solar panels. It should be really stop all other news, this is the story. Because you know what? If we don’t get this right nothing’s going to matter, not our abortion and gun control. Important issues but there’s no good gun control on a bad planet. There’s no good economy on a bad planet. There’s no good anything on a bad planet. And we’re turning a incredibly good one into something that we’re not going to recognize. Our children and grandchildren may not recognize, a barren landscape. That makes me angry, and sad and fires me up no end.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes. Well, I’m glad to hear it, and I’m glad you’re still in the fight and continuing this. So what I’d like to do then is ask you, what advice would you give to leaders and aspiring leaders who are starting to have their own feelings about climate, and starting to wake up to climate reality? And maybe you could answer that, in general, but maybe you could answer that specifically for journalists and people in media who are now … They’re already in that system, and they’re having these feelings. What would you recommend that they do?

Betsy Rosenberg:             I always say listen because I did radio for so long. This is going to sound like a shameless plug but none of us get paid, this is not about me. Watch GreenTV because we have interviews with the leaders in their fields and that’s a start because I’ve learned so much from the people that I interview and we have fun with it. We laugh, we cry. But okay, that’s a half-serious answer. Beyond that, welcome, thank you, we’ve been waiting for you, where have you been? The cavalry is starting to arrive. This is the biggest story you’ll ever cover, nothing else will compare. It’s not your imagination that it’s overwhelming. Acknowledge that. It’s not your imagination that you’ve wondered where you’ve been and where your editors have been all these years. The last 20, 25 years that some of us have been talking about it and it seems like nobody’s been listening, but it’s not too late, it’s not too late at all.

Not an ounce of emission but a ton of emissions makes a difference. Don’t think that it’s oh, it’s too late because it feels like we went as a society, not just in this country but especially here, oh, problem what problems? Especially certain politicians. To oh, it’s too late we’re screwed. Of course, Betsy. I’m naive because I think there’s hope. Oh really, did we give up on the next generation? I missed that memo that said, “Nothing’s going to be left for our kids and grandkids.” Just know, especially you journalists new to the climate or environmental beat, you’re on the most important beat there is. I couldn’t understand for years, where is everybody? I wasn’t the only one, but in broadcast media, I was for many, many years.

It’s just, unfortunately, a lot of right-wing media has really obscured and continues to try to downplay the dangers and that makes me madder than anything. I’ve been on Sean Hannity 15 times, and most recently up against a deniasaur named Alex Epstein on NewsNation who has written two books about the rosy future of fossil fuels. That, unfortunately, is part of the reason that journalists are now just getting assigned the climate beat when it should have been something that was clearly real years and years ago. It’s all connected in my mind anyway, connect all these dots. But know that it’s important, know that you need to take self-take breaks and self-care. What do I mean by that? Exercise, deep breaths, all the usual things. Yoga, meditation, therapy, whatever it takes. But mostly know that you’re part of a community, and it’s a growing community.

I get choked up because the people who do this work, it’s hard. It’s really hard. Because when I think about what my daughter’s poor children or child, what year it will be, 2030, 2050, and if we continue with business as usual, which will be the worst case scenario, it’s going to be a very, very tough life. And the thought of starting new life at this point in our civilization where it really feels like the beginning of the end. I used to think I was maybe overly dramatic, I’m reading too much, I’m immersed in it. I have a personality that scans the horizon for signs of trouble because of my upbringing. But then I’m reading and hearing so many people saying, “No, it is as bad as you think.” It’s like oh, I really thought it was me exaggerating it.

Just we need you, we need everybody. I say there’s a way to put a green twist on any job you’re in. If it’s building, go to green buildings. If it’s law, be an environmental lawyer. If it’s nutritionists, look into plant-based diets. If you’re a physician, look at integrated medicine. All the things that are much more in touch with nature and much healthier. And whatever it is, I can give you a green tip. And when I talk to college students like that because they’re so used to oh, this climate change lady’s going to come depress us even more. I say two things. One, I’m giving you a green lead. I’m getting out in front of the elephant and it’s a divot and it’s going to happen so be ready. You’ll have future secure position and career because we’re here as far as sustainability goes and we have to go here. I say to them, “If you hope to have children, and you’re going to be in demand, you just are so get ready for it.” And they get excited about that.

And the other thing I say is, “Go home and tell your parents to get off their couches and get off their gases.” And this is where Bill McKibben and I had this in common. That people my age, 50s, 60s, 70s … I’m not close to retiring but some people are, and they have more time and money, and especially parents and grandparents. Don’t just take up golf, don’t just take up Mahjong, take up the planet, take up doing your part to undo some of the damage that we as a generation and prior have done, but we’ve known about it for at least 20, 30 years since James Hansen testified in Congress in 1988. I’m all over the map here, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:                   No, you’re not, you’re actually spot on. I mean, it was just brilliant all of the great suggestions that you provided us here.

Betsy Rosenberg:             You will not be wasting your time. I guess that’s what I want to say to anybody who puts a twist of lime, a green tint on their careers. The most important thing you could do. And by the way, thank you for your 420 parts per million because I do a random quiz when I am speaking or talking to friends who are not green. I say, “How many parts per million of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere do you think there? Who’s Bill McKibben? Which extinction are we in the middle of?” I mean, I think it’s funny.

Matt Schlegel:                   We just need to get the word out.

Betsy Rosenberg:             Okay, let’s-

Matt Schlegel:                   It’s really hard.

Betsy Rosenberg:             Let’s get to that. Let’s get to that.

Matt Schlegel:                   Our media environment just is not conducive to these types of conversations. And you are so spot on when you say, one, we can start now, and any action we take now will help us reduce-

Betsy Rosenberg:             Absolutely makes a difference.

Matt Schlegel:                   The problem later. And if we all did that it would just that much better.

Betsy Rosenberg:             And your families, and your friends, and neighbors will see you. We put our solar panels on in our neighborhood in Texas, we had to fight our neighbors for it. We live in oil and gas country, Hill Country. But then another neighbor came to us and said, “Oh, tell us about your solar panels.” We have electric cars, and we started to see more electric cars in the neighborhood. We’re social creatures, and it really does matter. Even if you can’t change your career, it’s what you do. And talk about it everywhere you go. We all need to be ambassadors.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thank you again, Betsy, I really appreciate your time today. And thanks again for all your efforts.

Betsy Rosenberg:             Likewise. And I want to tell everybody to go forth and greenify. Whatever that means, make it greener. Thanks.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for listening. Betsy’s focused her career on getting corporate media to pay attention to the climate crisis, and she’s done that for years now and felt alone in her mission. Now she feels like she’s finding more like-minded people who have a similar vision to have a media outlet devoted to climate solutions. Please help by subscribing to greentv.com to get her channel to 1,000 subscribers so that she can start live streaming her content. I’ve put the link to the greentv.com channel in the show notes. If you found this conversation helpful, please click on the thumbs-up button and subscribe to our channel to get notification of future episodes. And if you have any questions, please leave them in the comments section and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

Filed Under: Climate Crisis, Leadership

Five Generations in the Workforce! How Are They Getting Along?

July 31, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

With older generations living longer and leading healthier lifestyles, amazingly there are now five generations in the workplace!  Each generation brings a distinct style and strength to the workforce. Authors Twiana Armstrong, Kimberly Layne and I discuss how leaders are responding to intergenerational dynamics.

Kimberly Layne: https://www.kimberly-layne.com/

Twiana Armstrong: https://linkedin.com/in/twianaarmstrong

#Roaring20s #Roaring2020s #leadership

[Video Transcript]

[Twiana Armstrong]

Leadership historians capturing business and workplace cultures will write extensively about these times – yes, about Covid-19 and the other pandemics that have beset the business world, and also about resources, human resources.  With longer life expectancies, 5 generations now occupy the workplace. Leaders must focus on developing a culture of collaborative agreements, harmonious engagements and cohesive team building. Understanding how to manage, develop, train and lead each generation is one of the pathways to success. Research shows that the 5 generations: traditionalists, baby boomers, gen X, millennials also known as gen y and the gen z’s, each have unique characteristics that motivate and incentives their behaviors. In order to execute goals and engineer expectations, leaders must be well versed in these characteristics. These are just a few offered by Intergenerational experts for those leading multi-generation teams:

  1. Match the workforce to the customer base.
  2. Create councils and boards that are intergenerational.
  3. Pay attention to employee demographics.

To quote intergenerational expert Haydn Shaw, “Every generation in the workplace has value, each has their own strengths, their own weaknesses, and their own unique tenets.  Each is indispensable and when they come together as a synergistic force, they can be unstoppable.”

Leaders, let’s talk, share your tips on how you successfully lead intergenerational teams.

[Matt Schlegel]

That’s such a great point about having five generations in the workforce now, with each bringing a distinct style and strength.

One of the things that I’ve observed, is how the education of younger generations is influencing their expectations in the workforce.

For instance, when my kids were going through elementary school, the classroom structure was so different than when I went to school. It was much more of a Montessorial style, which promotes collaboration and self-direction, whereas my classroom, all the desks were lined in rows, facing the front of the classroom, looking at the teacher. The teacher stood up at the front of the classroom and taught us and interaction etween students was discouraged.

my kids’ classrooms were very different.  All of the desks were in pods and all the kids were facing one another.

That structure encouraged the kids to learn from one another as much or more than learning from the teacher.

This classroom structure instilled a  sense of collaboration and self-direction. And my kids experience that style throughout their formative years.

These school experiences shape expectations for how they will engage in the workplace. They expect to have that same sense of collaboration, self-direction and empowerment. They assume they will have a say about what work gets done and how it will be get done.

Leaders from older generation will benefit by understanding these expectations of Gen Z and younger millennials.  Doing so will improve employee retention and create a more motivated workforce.

[Kimberly Layne]

Filed Under: Diversity, Leadership

Enneagram and Feeling on the Grief Gratitude Podcast

July 25, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Delighted to be in conversation with Kendra Rinaldi, host of the Grief Gratitude Podcast.  On Episode #115, Kendra and I discuss the Enneagram and how different Enneagram types process feelings.

Grief Gratitude Podcast Episode #115: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/podcast/episode/8e9f5db2/115-using-enneagrams-to-understand-ouselves-and-others-with-matt-schlegel

Discover more episodes here: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/podcast

Learn about Kendra’s coaching services here: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/

Connect with Kendra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%F0%9F%8C%80kendra-rinaldi%F0%9F%8C%80-69186376/

[Podcast Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Each one of these types has a first reaction to a super stressful situation. And so for the gut people, it’s driven by anger. For the heart people, it’s driven by feelings and including sadness and grief. And then for the head people, it’s anxiety. So when people are going through a transition, depending on what their enneagram type is, they will probably start with one of those three.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes in transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief. I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I’m Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now let’s dive right in to today’s episode.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Welcome to today’s episode. We have Matt Schlegel on and we will be talking about his book, Teamwork 9.0 and talking about enneagrams and how we can use it to solve problems, including climate change. So that is a big one, that’s a big one. So welcome, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

So great to be with you here, Kendra. Thanks for having me.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Thank you. Thank you for being here. I’m so glad to have you on. And I was telling the assistant that reached out to tell me about your book regarding enneagrams. I’m like, “Oh yes. I’ve been looking into that.” And I had already had my children do to see which enneagram… Oh, okay, let’s get that one. Enneagram, enneagram, enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

Enneagram.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Enneagram, enneagram. Okay, I’ll just say it that way. Enneagram. What enneagram number my kids were just so that I could even know how to relate with them. I had made them do the test. I already had an idea which one they were and I was right on one child. I wasn’t right on the other, which was surprising. And then just recently I did it myself. Funny, I had done it for my kids, but I had not done for mine.

Matt Schlegel:

Are you going to tell us?

Kendra Rinaldi:

So I will tell you which one came up, number two. Yeah, I’m a two. I’m a two, that one came up. What about you? What number are you?

Matt Schlegel:

I’m a six.

Kendra Rinaldi:

You’re a six? So tell us, okay, my gosh we’re jumping already ahead. So what is number six? What is that one?

Matt Schlegel:

Oh, so sometimes we’re called the loyalist, sometimes we’re called like the bureaucrat, sometimes we’re called the questioner. We ask lots of questions. We like systems, we things to go in order predictably so that’s why we create these systems to try to make things happen in a predictable way.

Kendra Rinaldi:

And that’s exactly what you did. So tell us your background, because you’d wrote a book, but tell us what your background is and why it is that systems is definitely your niche.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. So yeah, I started out with a technical background engineering. I became an engineer and at some point my manager came to me and said, “Hey, Matt, I want you to be a manager.” And I said, “I don’t know how to manage people. I only know about managing electrons.” And he said, “Don’t worry, you’ll be fine.’ But now that you know I’m a six, you know I’m not fine. And so I started studying everything, studying, studying, studying, and then I came across all of these tools to help teams and people be more effective in working together. And one of those systems I came across was the enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

So my engineering brain likes to pull these systems apart and put them back together and see what works well and what doesn’t. And no matter how much I poked and prodded at enneagrams, it’s like, “Oh, this is amazing.” It’s like, it just keeps going and going and going and is so powerful and it’s so effective at predicting how things will work out, which appeals to a type six, obviously. So that’s why I just became fascinated with it. I ended up using it at work with my team, both as a personality system. And then I asked the question, why are the enneagram types numbers? Why aren’t they letters or colors or animals, or why numbers?

Kendra Rinaldi:

And why?

Matt Schlegel:

Well, it turns out that the numbers are there for a reason and it’s exact order in which humans solve problems. So there is a personality dynamic associated with each type and that dynamic is exactly the dynamic you need in problem solving for that step. So for instance, the type one is sometimes called the perfectionist and they’re the ones that say, “Hey, it shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this.’ Well, what’s the first step in problem solving, “Hey, there’s a problem. It shouldn’t be like that. It should be like this.” And on and around. So step two, for instance if you-

Kendra Rinaldi:

With the mind?

Matt Schlegel:

Relating to the step two, the step two is who cares? Who cares about the problem? If somebody thinks there’s a problem and nobody around them cares, then you’re probably not going to end up solving the problem. But if the one brings up, “Hey, there’s a problem.” And then a bunch of people around them say, “Yeah, you’re right. We care. There is a problem,” then guess what? The problem gets solved. You move to step three, let’s come up with some ideas. And step four, oh, let’s pick a good idea. And step five, let’s analyze the ideas. Step six, oh, let’s build a plan to get to the goal. Seven, let’s get everybody excited. Step eight, let’s stop talking and do it. And step nine, how did it work?

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s so perfect. Yeah. So then if nine people were to be in a team and each one was one number, then would that make that team be more effective if there was a one or two all the way through nine.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, exactly. It would be a perfectly balanced team. Now, the odds that you would get nine people, all one of each type together is almost astronomical that would happen. So most teams aren’t balanced like that, which is why I have a consulting practice.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. And I liked I just went to your link right now, which by the way I’ll make sure to link in the show notes so that people can go because you have a free assessment one, and yours was actually easier. I didn’t have time right before our call to fill it out and I had already done it in another website, but I felt the way you just checkmarked on these was easier than these other ones that go into these questions that it’s like from inaccurate to accurate kind of like, where are you? It’s a little more gray area when you’re answering. And you’re like, “Eh, am I like?” So those are a little more ambiguous sometimes in these other websites to answer. And I thought yours was really clear and concise because you just check mark which ones apply to you and then you kind of know in the number that you check mark the most, that probably that’s yours.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. And just one warning about enneagram assessments. In my experience, the one that I have up right now on my website is a good one but you have to also acknowledge that you’re coming to the test at a certain state in your life. Like for instance, when I first took the assessment years ago, I tested highest as an eight and six was the next highest. They were about the same, but eight was a little higher. And that’s because I was working in a situation surrounded by eights where eight behavior was expected and I was behaving like an eight and I was just filling the role that was expected of me. So when I checked off those things, I was like, “Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that.” And I wasn’t thinking about, is that really the way I would respond if I were just doing it on my own or am I doing it because that’s what’s expected me of my culture? And so just be aware that sometimes you may not score the highest on your actual core type.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. Now with that said, do you notice that the same can occur then in a family in which maybe you end up being more of a number because that’s what maybe is needed more in that role as a parent or something, that you end up kind of becoming more of a certain number in that dynamic as well?

Matt Schlegel:

I think that’s more true for adults than for children. If it’s children taking the test, they’re less in control and they’ve been less culturized into behaving in certain ways in certain situations. And so they tend to answer the questions more honestly. And so I’d say that’s more of a situation for an adult, like being a mother, there’s a lot of twoness in being a mother. And so if you’re a mother and you’re taking care of kids, you’re like, “Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that.”

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, I’m a two, I’m a two, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

You’re behaving like a two whether you’re a two or not as a mother.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s so true, that’s so true. Okay, so now let’s talk a little bit about your life. So where do you live? And then we already found out how it is you came about developing the system, but I wanted to learn more about you. So where do you live and a little bit about your family?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, so I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and I’m married for 31 years. I have three kids. The oldest is 28, living up in Seattle, next is down in San Diego and both are young women who are successfully out on their own and I’m very proud of them. And then I have a son who is still with us here in the home. He’s in college, he’s taking classes and he’s studying likely to be an engineer.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Like dad.

Matt Schlegel:

Following in his dad’s footsteps a little bit. And I’m very proud of him in the progress he’s making too. So, yeah, it’s great.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Excellent. Now, how did this enneagram, did you end up making everybody test when you found this out? How long ago did you find out about enneagrams and did you end up then having everyone in your family then take the test?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, so I’ve been working with the enneagram for over 20 years now. And we actually learned it through my wife’s church so the pastor at my wife’s church is really into the enneagram. And in fact, he now has a foundation that focuses on different elements of spirituality that aren’t necessarily religious. And one of those is the enneagram. And so he actually has invited me to become the director of enneagram studies for his foundation. So he’s my long time mentor on the enneagram and still we do monthly enneagram workshops together. So that’s a long way of saying I actually came into it after most of my family already knew it. And when I’m taking the test and then I’m testing eight and they’re looking at me like, “You’re not an eight,” you know what I’m saying? I’m like, “Oh, okay.”

Kendra Rinaldi:

And you’re like, okay so if you go with the flow, then wait, are eights more rigid or eights more…?

Matt Schlegel:

No, no. I mean, eight are probably less rigid. They’re the ones who like to be in control so they’re the boss or the asserter, that’s that style, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. But when you said “No, okay, I’m a six,” That’s why I said, oh, okay. Maybe you weren’t an eight if you’re like, “Okay, yeah, I’ll go with the six,” because maybe if you were an eight, you would’ve been like, no, no, I’m an eight. I know I am

Matt Schlegel:

That’s right. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. It’s like when they said you’re not an eight, it makes me think, which is exactly what a six does, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes, exactly. You’re like, “Oh wait. No, yeah, you’re right, I’m not.” Okay, so then you did that then in your personal life and then how is it that then you started then to implement? So when you were given this role at work to be a project manager, you’re like, “How am I going to manage people?” You come up with this system, this tool, how did you start implementing it then with your team?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Well, first of all like most people you come into the enneagram through that personality aspect of it. So that problem solving process, the one through nine came later. So I just started using it with my team and introduced them to it, got them to understand each other’s styles and types. And and it was really very effective at helping everybody understand each other’s perspective. And most importantly, it gives you a vocabulary. It gives you a vocabulary to talk about these different dynamics that are going on, right? When some conflict arises and you have the vocabulary of the enneagram, and you could say, “Well, you are one and you are a seven, and you know the ones have this objective, the sevens have this objective.” And you’re all trying to get to the same end point, but you have these different perspectives and that’s where this conflict is arising and so let’s talk about that.

Matt Schlegel:

And that’s one of the things I’m most grateful about for the system is that vocabulary and then allowing people to just open up that possibility that, “Oh, well, yeah, my perspective isn’t the only perspective and now that I understand they are one and I understand what’s important to them I can totally see why they’re doing that and, well, this is the common ground, so let’s do that.” Boom, done.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Then it helps. Now, how open are people in general to take the test, when you’re managing a team, are people really excited to find out what they are? Are people reluctant or do people see how beneficial this could be in that team or work environment? You know what I mean? Have you had all kinds of people, be like, “Nah, I don’t want to do that.”

Matt Schlegel:

All of the above. And it depends on the type. Some types, like you said earlier, eight, I am an eight. Yeah, okay, let’s go, right? I mean, eight is one, they don’t mind being an eight and they resonate with that eightness and it’s done. And certain type ones are also, they pretty easily self-identify. But then some of the other types have more trouble like take the nine, right? The nine is the master at understanding everybody’s perspective. That’s what they do, they’re always thinking of others, they’re always putting themselves into other people’s shoes. And so it’s really hard for them to, say, “Well then who am I?” And so when you’re talking to a nine, it’s like, “Well, maybe that is one of the aspects of being a nine is that you can do this.” Oh, okay, right? So each type, another one is fours, they’re able to put themselves in everybody’s emotional shoes. And so sometimes they have a little more trouble. Fives, they tend to be able to masterfully take on different roles and personas in the environment. So they feel like they can be anybody and to the point where like, “Okay, so which one am I?”

Kendra Rinaldi:

Which one am I? Because they’re a chameleon, uh-huh.

Matt Schlegel:

And the one that they are is the one that’s able to put themselves in everybody’s personas.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Right, right, right, right, right, right. So, yeah, so then it helps. Now in the work environment when you’ve done this, do you see that there’s numbers that work better together in general personality wise? What would you say is that? Is there a particular formula for that?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and I actually write about this in a chapter in my book called Work Team Triads. And I first noticed it just anecdotally, just seeing if you just throw people together and they kind of organically start to work together and then I would see which types are just naturally working together. And I found out that there are these three distinct groups that just naturally work together with almost no conflict at all. It’s just like, wow. And I call them work team triads, and I gave them names, but there is another author who called them the harmony triads.

Matt Schlegel:

And so they’re the one, the four and the seven; the two, the five and the eight; and the three, six and nine. And so those groups of three tend to like each other and work well together. And so that’s a really interesting facet that I’ve found of this. And each one of those teams brings a certain distinct dynamic, right? So if you have a one and a seven and the four together, they want to do new, innovative, fun stuff, right? So that’s your team for like exploring new possibilities. And then the two, five and the eight, what they want to do is like, “We want to get stuff done.”

Matt Schlegel:

And then so then those are the type of people who tend to migrate to more operations types of roles in companies where they’re just cranking out product or they’re running the place, right? And then the three, six, nine, that’s the group that kind of wants to look at everything and build a smooth operating structure for everything, right? And so they tend to put in place the organizations and the systems that just kind of make it all work together. And so those are kind of the three, and you’ll see companies go through that same phase too, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Well, that’s what I was just going to say, yeah, because you need the creatives to come up with the idea of what it is going to be to then hand off to the two, the fives and the eights to then implement it to then hand to the team that’s a three, six, nine to then be able to create the whole picture.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. So I call them the startup triad, the industrious triad and the systematizing triad.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is so cool. Okay, so those are triads. Now, are there numbers, let’s say that would work, I know you mainly do it for work environments but would there be then numbers that work together as teams in relationship wise too? Because these are tryouts, which ones would be like numbers that work well, just as binary?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. So so any combination of those harmony triads. So oftentimes you’ll see eights and twos pair up eights, twos and fives, any combination of those will pair up. One, fours and sevens, you see that all the time, ones and sevens marry each other all the time. The other one is three, six, nines. I see couples from that triad together all the time.

Matt Schlegel:

And then there’s one other pattern that I’ve seen, and this is a really interesting aspect of the enneagram, is that for any type, the hardest dynamic… So I’m a six and I’m kind of in my six dynamic and I have more or less access to the other dynamics, the other eight dynamics, but generally the hardest dynamic for any type to access is one type hire. Like for me, it’s the seven, right? And that is true almost all the time, all the way around.

Matt Schlegel:

So here’s what I see happen is that when women, because women make the choice usually in the relationship, right? So when women are looking for somebody to partner with, they see tin hat person who is one type, one number higher, someone who’s very complimentary to them. So I see this all the time and it does get a little bit gender related in this case, but that’s just the pattern I’ve observed is that the woman will often choose a man who is one number higher. And so that’s another pattern I see.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is interesting. Now I’m curious now because you’ve interviewed then a lot of people to be able to see all these patterns, you’ve been able to observe a lot of different people. Because with this podcast being a lot regarding grief, have you noticed in situations that are hard how each number deals with transitions differently, like a change in life? Could you talk a little bit about that and how would that apply in situations like that in their life?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, yes. Great question. And enneagram really can speak to this very well because there’s another set of triads in the enneagram. And these are called the centers, these are the main triads of the enneagram. It’s the eight, nine, one; the two, three four; and the five, six seven. And the best way I found to explain this is if you’ve seen the movie The Wizard of Oz and there’s Dorothy and she meets these three characters on her journey. She meets the lion who wants courage, meets the tin man who wants a heart and meets the scarecrow who wants a head. And those are exactly the same elements that are associated with these main triads. The eight, nine, one are the gut people. Th two, three, four are the heart people. And the five, six, seven are the head people.

Matt Schlegel:

And then each one of these types has a first reaction to a super stressful situation. And so for the gut people, it’s driven by anger. For the heart people, it’s driven by feelings and including sadness and grief. And then for the head people it’s anxiety. So when people are going through a transition, depending on what their enneagram type is, they will probably start with one of those three. Some people will go straight to grief, some people will go to anger and some people will go to anxiety and have panic attacks, right? So for instance, when I saw the title of your podcast, I knew immediately that you were in the two, three, four group, because you start off with grief and gratitude, which is exactly, the grief is the two, three, four, and the gratitude is the two. So if you had asked me just from the podcast title, I could have guessed two.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is so interesting. It’s interesting how much you can know about someone just by these choices. And then with knowing this then too, then in assimilating when other people are going through something hard, by knowing your enneagram and by knowing other people and your families’ enneagram, you can know where they’re at in that moment of their transition and why it is that maybe they’re leading more towards the anxiety component in that transition, rather than with the grief and the sadness or the other person maybe leading with anger. And it helps you understand and be more empathetic towards the way that each of us is dealing with it differently.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly, exactly, exactly. And no response is wrong, right? There is no wrong response. And we’re humans. And this is the one thing I love about the enneagram is because just once I understood I’m a six and being a six guy in America is kind of a tough thing, it’s not the normal accepted behavior for a guy. The kind of the prototypical guy model is the eight. And so as a six I’m having to kind of step out of my comfort zone and be more like what’s expected of me in my culture. And then if you’re not aware that you’re doing that intentionally, and you’re just like, “Oh, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I just do what comes to them naturally?” It can be a little self defeating, right?

Matt Schlegel:

But once you understand your enneagram type, and then you understand what is your gift, what is your superpower in problem solving? Because we all have a superpower in problem solving. We all have this superpower that we can contribute to helping everybody else out. And then once you know that, it’s like, oh I feel the way I am, because that’s exactly the right thing for me to feel and I just need to now know how to channel that into a healthy contribution to the group and not let it control me. I’m just using it to inform me.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s the right word.

Matt Schlegel:

I can now inform the group better about what is going on. Does that make sense?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes, absolutely. And I think that is so important because sometimes we’re so hard on ourselves in how it is we react to situations. We’re our biggest judge, right? And so by being understanding and having grace with ourselves and the way that we deal with certain situations and the way that we react based on our personality, it gives us also that capacity of having grace with others, if we have grace with ourselves as well.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes, right. And then, yeah, once you have that acceptance of yourself and “Oh, it’s okay for me to feel anxious. I’m supposed to feel anxious. It’s not a problem.” And then it’s like, “Oh, it’s okay for them to be angry, that’s exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. It’s okay for them to be sad, that’s exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. It’s all okay.” And then we can just like, what is that telling us? Why are they sad? What about what we’re doing is causing-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Bringing up those emotions.

Matt Schlegel:

Them to be sad and what can we do to help them overcome that?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. No, that is awesome. Now you mentioned before we started recording how then these enneagrams can also help us with climate change.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay, let’s go into that. How is it that understanding this can then lead us to solve these bigger world problems?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right, yeah. So you can look at the challenge of climate change as a problem, right? It’s a problem, right? And so step one in that problem solving process is identifying that, “Oh, there’s a problem.” And so then once you say, “Okay, there’s a problem,” then you go to step two, which is, do you care? And I would say right now collectively, and I live in America so I’ll just speak for America, in my impression is not enough people yet care, right? Once enough people care then action starts to happen, right? And so I think we’re in this process now of moving from realization of the problem and then moving into caring about the problem.

Matt Schlegel:

But there’s a big challenge with caring about climate change, which is different from other challenges in a big way. And that is that once you acknowledge that, “Oh, there’s a climate crisis and it’s caused by burning fossil fuels, that’s the root cause of this is burning fossil fuels.” Then you’re like, “If I acknowledge that problem, does that mean I have to stop burning fossil fuels? Does that mean I have to start thinking about how I’m using fossil fuels? When I’m showering, is that a gas heater out there heating up that water? When I get in my car, am I burning fossil fuels to get to work? I get on an airplane, am I burning fossil fuel kerosene as I’m flying across the country?”

Kendra Rinaldi:

As I’m using this plastic cup, did fossil fuel go into creating this? So many things.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. And so once you get to that point, in that process, I look at it as a grieving process and what’s the first step in grieving? Denial.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Realization. Well, oh, denial, yeah. If we go by the steps, yeah. Or that realization, yeah. Okay.

Matt Schlegel:

So it’s a lot easier for us to just deny the problem and deny there’s a problem and blithely go along on our lives and just ignore the problem.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Because if we accept it, then we have to take action, which is way more work.

Matt Schlegel:

But it’s more than that, it’s actually going through the grieving process. And you see it, right? Some people will get sad, so we have climate grief now, that’s a term, we have climate anxiety or eco anxiety, that’s a term. So you can see, and then you get people-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Anger.

Matt Schlegel:

Who go to just like we had, I think the mass shooting we had in Buffalo is a manifestation of somebody who’s reacting to climate with anger. And so we’re going to see these reactions to the climate crisis, anger, we’re going to see grief and we’re going to see anxiety. And we’re going to be just seeing more and more of it because the climate crisis isn’t going away and we’re all going to be impacted by it soon. And so I know this is kind of heavy stuff, but the enneagram does give us a model for how humanity will respond in our various ways. And then and the hopeful thing is as more and more of us actually overcome our denial then and our impact and work start to work through that grieving process, that’s going to get us to action. That is the thing that will get us to action.

Kendra Rinaldi:

And now in that action then, I was having this conversation right before in the other interview I was having. And it’s about like, sometimes we think these big things are happening war. Okay, what do I do about that?” Can I go and stop the actual, no. So there’s other smaller things we can do in our day-to-day to have a ripple effect in the big scheme. So in that action then that we can each take then for climate change and the impact each of us are making, what would you say, going back to enneagram, are there then some specific things then that in each enneagram group, enneagram group would then lead more towards doing?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, yeah. And that’s a great question. And what I tell people is once they do get to the point where they want to take action, the climate crisis is, there’s a term now called hyperobject. The hyperobject is the thing that touches everything, right? And there’s a parable about the elephant and the five blind men and you put five blind men into a room-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, each touching part of it, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and they’re all describing the problem in different ways, but the real problem is it’s the elephant in the room. And so when I talk to people who want to take action, I ask them, “Well, what are you passionate about? Are you passionate about recycling, or are you passionate about reducing single use plastic, or are you passionate about working with your local representative and getting them to do something?” Because we all need to do everything and so the best thing to do is the thing that you’re passionate about, because you’re bringing your whole heart and your whole self to it, and that will infect other people to want to join you because they’ll see your passion and they’ll want to join you in doing it. And so there’s no wrong answer in taking climate action. It’s an all of the above thing and just follow your heart and do what you can do while keeping in mind that the most important thing you can do is actually start to reduce the amount of fossil fuel you burn in your life.

Matt Schlegel:

And then be that example. So if you can bike instead of getting into the car, bike instead of getting into the car and show everybody, “Hey, I’m biking, I’m going to bike to the station instead of taking the car,” whatever, just start thinking about how you’re using. We’re electrifying our home and the last appliance that we had was the water heater, and we replaced our gas water heater with a heat pump water heater, and we turned off the gas to the house now there’s no gas flowing to the house and it’s great. And now the city is going to interview me and ask me about the experience and then they’re going to put up my testimonial and so I’m just going to like there are poeople that do it.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s the ripple effect right there, right?

Matt Schlegel:

And that’s what we want to do, yeah, yeah.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, yes. Just one little thing can make a difference. Now, and in the same aspect then back again to even just the teamwork, Teamwork 9.0, that’s teamwork right there in the big scope of things of life right there. And then in your work environment, then the same, when we know that what we’re doing has an impact in the organization we’re part of, in the family unit we’re, in the city we live in and so forth it does make a difference. When we realize our actions do affect another human being. So it all comes down also to that, that connectiveness of humanness, of each other.

Matt Schlegel:

It’s very scalable. From the smallest team, like you and your partner or you and your family, or I joined rock band last year.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, how cool? What do you play? Do you play or do you sing?

Matt Schlegel:

So I’m kind of the utility player. I’ve been doing vocals, bass and drums with this band. So yeah, but all of them have different enneagram styles so you see all those dynamics come into play in that situation too. But it’s everywhere, right? And then, “Oh, she’s a one, that’s why she’s bringing this up.” And okay, I understand that and let’s work with her to help her solve this thing that she thinks is wrong and let’s help her get it to being right.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Did you make them all in the band also take the test?

Matt Schlegel:

I haven’t said anything about the enneagram for that. This is all just going on in my mind.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, now they’re going to have to take it so that you guys even can just work more effectively. Yeah, that’d be interesting that in every single dynamic that we’re in if we were to take that. But if not, then, like you said, if we even have an understanding of what other people are in terms of personality is just how we relate to them that also shifts and just by even changing that dynamic and that interaction, it already has an effect on the team.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and this just came up the other day. One of the persons who’s a type one had made a comment and I thought how would I respond to that? And I’m like, so they’re in the intuitive group and I’m in the head group, and the comment they made really made no sense to me, to my rational brain. But whatever I would say would come from a place of like, “That doesn’t make sense. Can you explain that to me?” Whereas there’s another person in the band who is also in that intuitive group who’s a nine. And I know the nine will always say the nicest, softest thing and will understand the one way better than I do. So I just zipped my mouth and I just waited and sure enough, the nine spoke up and said the most perfect thing. So just having that knowledge and just being able to check myself and my reaction and just letting that naturally happen.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, how beautiful?

Matt Schlegel:

That was worth the price of a mission on learning the enneagram, just for that.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s beautiful, but that takes a lot of self control to do what you did of just like, “Okay, let me just wait because I know that I will not say the right thing to this number one but if I just wait a number nine will say the right thing in order to be out of the situation. That’s wonderful. Okay, so then how many years has it been that you’ve been using this then in the workspace? I know you said 20 years ago was when your wife first brought it. And honestly, it’s only been in the last year that I’ve heard about this for myself. I had not heard about this. But again, I’m not testing myself all the time to figure out what personality trait I am.

Matt Schlegel:

But the millennials are all over this.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. Oh, I’m hearing it so much now. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. And if you go on to YouTube and you Google enneagram, there is just some hilarious comments, videos about different enneagram types.

Kendra Rinaldi:

What they would do in the same situation? Yeah, like how they would have… It’s funny, it’s funny.

Matt Schlegel:

It’s so funny and it’s a great way to learn about the different styles.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah. So for you then when did you start implementing it then in your strategy?

Matt Schlegel:

It was shortly after I learned. I just started talking to people about it, it was a part of my learning process. Do you know this? Are you interested? And other people in my group would say, “Yeah, I’ll take the test, sure,” and they took it and so it was pretty much right away that I was able to start to use it in the work setting very informally at first. Yeah.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. And now let’s talk about your book. When did you launch it and how do people, how can people get ahold of it?

Matt Schlegel:

Oh yeah. So thank you for that. We launched it March 2020, right as we were going into pandemic world. And so, yeah, and it’s available on Amazon and definitely check it out and you can go to the website and take that assessment and that’s complimentary and just love to get your feedback on your thoughts on the book and how you’re using it. It’s always a delight to hear the different stories and different experiences people are having.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Now, who is this book for? Who is it for? Is it for someone that, like yourself, was a project manager that needed to figure out, is it for a parent? Is it for a teacher? Is it for somebody in the workspace? Who is the best person for this book?

Matt Schlegel:

So the answer is leaders of teams. So I was thinking of project and program managers, I had them in mind. And then I just had managers in general, who are managing a team and leaders in general, who are leading a team I wrote the book for them. It is just such a powerful tool for a leader to have that knowledge, even if their team doesn’t. I’m sharing examples of how I use it with my band, right? They don’t know the enneagram, but I know the enneagram. And as a leader I want everybody to work well together and I know when I can jump in and when I shouldn’t, and once other people can jump in and it’s the perfect thing, right? And so understanding, I mean, and I talk about, I have a chapter called shared leadership. It’s like when is it better for you to step back and let somebody else take that lead rather than just jumping in yourself? But it’s for it’s for leaders in general that I really have targeted the book.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Wonderful, wonderful. Now, is there anything I have not asked you that you would like to share or any final words for the listeners as they’re listening? Again, we’ve gotten a lot, we’ve gotten of how it is you can use it just for yourself, knowing your enneagram, how is that helpful for yourself? How is it helpful when you’re interacting with others in a work environment? How is it helpful in understanding that as you’re dealing with a transition or grief experience in your life, or a difficult time, and then how is it helpful when you’re leading also then teams? So what other things would you like to share with the listeners regarding how they can use this knowledge, this tool?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, and I just so appreciate this conversation and you asked all the right question, is so great to be able to share this. So you did such a good job of leading us through that, I don’t have anything else to add.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, well, I’m glad, I’m glad I was able to ask the right questions to get to that. So thank you, I learned so much about it. I learned so much about it. And again, the book is Teamwork 9.0 and author Matt Schlegel, who is with us today again. And thank you so much again for sharing your knowledge and on this topic and your own life experiences of how you’ve used this in your life so thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

Thank you, Kendra. It was a delight meeting with you today.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today’s episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode, and if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do. So also, if you or someone has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well. Please reach out to me and thanks once again for tuning into Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.

Filed Under: Enneagram, Podcast

Charged with Feelings, Climate Leader David Ligouy on his Solar-Powered Bike Trek from Argentina to California

July 19, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Author and climate leader David Ligouy focuses on developing green energy solutions for developing countries. His book – Able to Be Human – is currently being translated into English. His organization is an NGO called Peace Movement based on the Resistance Movement in France.  His current project, #BankOnTheClimate, is devoted to producing very economical, light electric vehicles for people in developing countries, like solar powered electric bikes!   To raise awareness and funding for this effort, David has ridden a solar powered bike from Argentina to California, and he’s currently on his way up the west coast to Canada.

Subscribe and follow #BankOnTheClimate on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeruw6lJCHyCjyvSHUzZzcg

Website:  https://www.bankontheclimate.com/

#Leadership, #Commitment, #EmotionalIntelligence, #EQ, #climatechange

[Video Transcript]

 

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using their feelings as a leadership tool for both inspiration and motivation.

Matt Schlegel:

Today, I’m speaking with author and climate leader David Ligouy. David works to bring solutions to people in developing countries that will help meet the internationally recognized sustainable development goals. And now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

Today, I’m speaking with a remarkable climate leader and author David Ligouy, who focuses on developing green energy solutions for developing countries. His book, Able To Be Human, is currently being translated into English. His organization is an NGO called Peace Movement and his current project, Bank on the Climate, is devoted to producing very economical light electric vehicles, for instance, solar-powered electric bikes. To raise awareness of this effort, David has ridden a prototype solar-powered bike from Argentina to California, and he’s currently on his way up the West coast to Canada. I am so eager to hear about what is inspiring him and motivating him on his journey. David, thank you so much for joining me today. Welcome.

David Ligouy:

Thank you very much, Matt. So, my inspiration come from science. I met a world scientist about EPCC, is a panel of climate change, is from Vietnam, and is an expert of integrate risk. So he did studies on integrate risk. So when you isolate a problem, you don’t see, okay, this maybe 20, 30 years. But he say, “Okay.” He said to me, “If we want to have a chance to save a lot of people, we are by 2020.” And I met him in 2015. So he says.

David Ligouy:

So I start to be conscious that we don’t have a lot of time. I prepare myself to the improbable. So in case it happens, maybe we all get together. We have, it’s for me an enormous hope that we can fix climate change, but also other solution my NGO Peace Movement, French Peace Movement is originally from the resistance, the resistance movement.

David Ligouy:

And in the resistance movement in 1941, Germany was as a Nazi was all over Europe for maybe four decades for… So, and the German army was the best in army in the world. So the Nazi was the best army in the world. So it was almost impossible to defeat them, improbable. But in two days, the Japanese decide to bomb Pearl Harbor and the USA enter in the war with us. So, and then USA has enormous potential. Okay. And the second one is the Nazi were defeated in studying God by the Russian. So in two days it changed completely the perspective of French resistance, that maybe there is a chance.

David Ligouy:

So, my NGO is focusing on social solution, economical solution, and also on environmental.

Matt Schlegel:

You said that your inspiration came out of science, but how did that make you feel? What are you feeling now?

David Ligouy:

I first feel overwhelmed by the situation. And also when I’m getting older, I have a lot of frustration because I think I didn’t do much. I did a lot, actually. We do. We Matt too. You did a lot. But we didn’t manage to, for the moment, we still didn’t manage to fix the situation. So it’s very frustrating sometime I have a lot of anger and I am overwhelmed by my anger. So, and also it’s a new field. That mean I was diagnosed with eco-anxiety one year ago and I’ve been suffering for 20 years. So, and…

Matt Schlegel:

So you were actually diagnosed with eco-anxiety, but you realize you’ve been feeling it for 20 years?

David Ligouy:

Yes, I didn’t… And then, so now I know what is my problem before. So, and I really like the book of this professor of Stanford.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. Dr. Britt Wray Generation Dread. Yes.

David Ligouy:

Wow. So she’s very courageous because she’s attacking this main problem.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

David Ligouy:

That I didn’t even know last year I was sick of it. I have all the feeling.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

David Ligouy:

All the bad feelings. You name it, I have it. All of them in a short time and a big amount of them. So it’s very hard to cope, but it’s preferable that I, and you Matt, are dealing with it than teenagers or children because they are not ready to face it. They don’t have the structure. If I have big problem to face it, I imagine the children. And so one of them is also denial. Me, I should be the guy who should know most the problem because I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it, but sometimes I don’t want to see it because it’s too much.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

David Ligouy:

So I have, my brain should do some denial to protect myself.

Matt Schlegel:

Many people are starting to have very strong feelings. But the easiest thing to do is to just be in denial. It’s a self-defense mechanism. And once you get past denial, it essentially uncorks all these other feelings that will come out, frustration, anger, grief, anxiety, all of these things are being bottled up now. And once you get past denial, they’re going to come out. And I think more and more people as they come to grips with climate reality, they will be starting to feel these feelings, which… So I guess what I want to ask you next is now that you are feeling all these feelings, how do you channel them into constructive positive action?

David Ligouy:

I have to know what is my… What’s called resilience. You have to look for resilience. Resilience, it’s a mechanical term. That’s if you hit somebody, if you hit a metal, it becomes stronger.

Matt Schlegel:

Mm.

David Ligouy:

So it’s a natural property of steel. If you hit it with hammer, it make it become every time stronger. So, but there’s a limit. So me, I have to find my resilience factors and everybody’s different.

Matt Schlegel:

Right?

David Ligouy:

So my… And then I do, because when you are overwhelmed by all these feelings, it’s not possible.

Matt Schlegel:

Right?

David Ligouy:

So you have to prepare it a little bit before that to get ready. So what I do first for me is swimming. So when I travel with my bike, I try to go to near the coast to be always near the Pacific coast or Atlantic coast. That’s what I do. Caribbean. So I know if I am too much overwhelmed by situation, I go to the sea. The sea calm me down.

David Ligouy:

And second one is, I do, what I do is biking. Because biking is generating sport. It’s generating also like swimming on the veins or calm my body and calm down my brain. And then, and biking, it’s helping me also with nature because I have to look the nature. I have to, not to look to my problem like this. I have to open to look left and right. It’s very basic. But to do that, look left and right, nature. “Oh, there’s a bird here. Oh, there’s a car here.” It just calm me down because I stop concentrating on my problems, on my fears. I look around. So that’s the second one. And the third one is dancing.

David Ligouy:

So in Latinos, they have been suffering for 500 years. So they are very resilient. They are not from a consuming society where they can have everything, because they don’t have money. So they found some ways to be resilient. So it’s dancing and singing. So they are poor, but they are allowed to dance. Don’t need too much to dance. So the third for me is dancing. I’m looking, I take some time to dance. And maybe a fourth, it’s maybe also very important is my bike, because bike will provide curiosity, provide…

David Ligouy:

So that’s one that was part of the project. That mean if you stress people, they’re already very stressed. Two third of the young people on the planet are stressed by the problem. And they are not in denial, because they don’t have this mechanism so elaborate. Adult are more in denial because they are too busy or obviously, cause they have way to be in denial. Young, especially young children, are not in denial. They are quite straightforward. They see the reality and they speak the reality and they are afraid. They are really afraid. They’re in panic.

David Ligouy:

So what I do with my bike, I bring curiosity, creativity, and joy. So, “Wow. What is this?” And then, and I provoke the meeting and I have a lower bike that also provoked humility, because I’m lower than people. That was part of the plan. So what I’m promoting is women is emancipation through transportation, who is the biggest… So also I’m tackling the problem. Action, so this, if I do action, if I’m just worry about my feeling, it doesn’t help. I have to act.

Matt Schlegel:

What advice would you give to them?

David Ligouy:

It’s everything is interactive. So I have to work on myself and I have to work with others. I have to also believe that it’s possible to do it on the world level. I have to work with the institution. Has to be a complete change.

David Ligouy:

So, and we have to do it fast. So it’s like a disruptive change in everything. So my advice is really based on the SDG. People should know first, what is SDG? And SDG, they have 169 target. So young people, especially, they should know that because it is going to help them to have an overview of the solution. This whole thing is interconnected. And after they have to feel in their heart, what is the most important for them? Because like in your book, everybody’s different. So you can work on one target, on of the 169 target and say… And maybe sometime you can even change in time, but you can constantly say, now I am more concerned about this target for could be gender equity could be integrated in education. It can be write a book or it can be okay… Or maybe sometime maybe you just too overwhelmed, just take care of yourself first. You can be taking care of others and this will take care of yourself.

Matt Schlegel:

Whenever you are going to start to have feelings about something it’s about a problem. That’s usually what is the starting point of having feelings is whether it’s your head or your heart or your gut is telling you that something isn’t right. There’s a problem. And…

David Ligouy:

It’s never face problem of humanity. Nobody have faced such a problem before.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. And you bring up the very good point of study the problem, really take the time to understand what the problem is. Don’t just assume, you know it, don’t just assume that your gut is right or your heart is right or your head is right. Actually take the time to understand the problem and then let that really good understanding of the problem inform your head or your heart or your gut, what to do next. I think that’s what I heard you say. And everybody is different. Everybody will bring a different strength or a different focus and we need it all. We need everything.

David Ligouy:

That’s biodiversity.

Matt Schlegel:

That’s right. Exactly. And if we’re all on the same page in terms of what the problem is, as we all contribute, we will all be working towards solving the same problem.

David Ligouy:

Yeah. It’s a patchwork of solution.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

David Ligouy:

It’s like a puzzle of solution and it will all come together.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

David Ligouy:

And it’s already planned by the SDG. So, okay. Okay. It’s going to work. You’re going to work on mental health of people because that’s your knowledge.

Matt Schlegel:

Well, David, thank you so much for all of your insights and sharing your feelings and for all of the work that you are doing and your focus, it’s really truly an inspiration for me. And I just appreciate you so much and what you’re doing, and I wish you the very best on your continued journey. And you know, much success to you as we solve our collective problem. Bank on the climate

David Ligouy:

Hashtag bank on the climate.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. And I will put a link to bank on the climate in the notes here. And you said that you have a YouTube explanation. So I’ll also put that in the notes for people so that they have a way to follow you and stay in touch with you.

David Ligouy:

Thanks so much, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

Okay. Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for watching. David shared so many fantastic insights for leaders who are facing a big problem and are starting to have strong feelings about that problem. He highlights the importance of taking care of yourself so that you don’t become overwhelmed. He emphasized the role that community plays in problem solving. And he says that you never know from when or where a tipping point will occur. So you have to prepare and be ready to take advantage of it when it does.

Matt Schlegel:

If you found this conversation helpful, please click on the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel to get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

Filed Under: Climate Crisis, Leadership, Video

How is Gen Z responding to stress in the Roaring 2020s workplace?

July 12, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Gen Z is entering the workforce at an extraordinarily stressful time. Authors Twiana Armstrong, Kimberly Layne and myself discuss what we are seeing, how Gen Z is responding, and what leaders can do.

Kimberly Layne: https://www.kimberly-layne.com/

Twiana Armstrong: https://linkedin.com/in/twianaarmstrong

#Roaring20s #Roaring2020s #MentalHealth #GenZ

[Video Transcript]

[Twiana Armstrong]

Recently read an article posted in 1999 that read, “Not that the older generation, hasn’t always heaped hopes and fears on the rising one, expecting it both to carry on what adults value and avoid their mistakes.”  As we reflect on our hopes and fears, we now witness five generations co-existing in the workplace: traditionalists, baby boomers, generation x, millennials, and generation z. Overlay this context with generational differences impacted by societal, political and community ills; all of which highlight differences between behaviors and outlooks. This generational diversity emphasizes that there is no one size fits all approach to leading and managing workers, especially our younger generations, the gen xers, millennials and the gen zers. Growing up, their worlds have been shaped by extremely significant events, oftentimes violent and chaotic, that subsequently influence their daily motivations. Leaders who do their homework have identified the keys to adapt, to communicate, to accommodate and prioritize for these generational variations.  Be bold in your efforts to invest in psychological empowerment and psychological flexibility, both of which promote mindfulness and positive mental health and quality of life, allowing for employee self-care.

[Kimberly Layne|

As parents, as teachers, as leaders, if we really stop and look, I mean really stop and look, …How do we see our younger generations faring, not just physically, but mentally?

Disruption is no longer temporary, but our “new normal.” The pandemic is in its third year, and we are also facing geopolitical conflicts, extreme climate events, sexual abuse, and inequality

For many adults, we have past memories, …happier and more positive memories that keep us keeping on, but, for our younger generations their lives have been a slew of unpredictable traumatic events:

Plane attacks, school Shootings, lock downs, terrible isolation, and disconnection. These constant unpredictable events, …hit the human core and are a terrorizing threat to their internal safety.

No wonder we see increased ADHD, depression, suicide, and violence against each other There is an absence of control, understanding and a helplessness on how to fix the problem.

Our youth are fighting to gain control

They press their employers to tackle climate change and find halfhearted responses that have minimal reach.

They have inspired organizations to address workplace mental health, yet they themselves suffer mentally, and are fearful to ask for help or take advantage of resources.

How can you as a leader meet these generations where they are?

Insightful David Rock, co-founder and CEO of the Neuro Leadership Institute, states

. “When the outside world is really uncertain, we all need more purpose and control in our day-to-day.” Getting our younger generations intrinsically tied to their work and meaning of the work they are doing is one way to give them back control.

Another way to give back control is to develop higher emotional skills. Such as Empathy, vulnerability, and an emotional understanding of ourselves and our struggling youth.

Your emotional strength as a leader provides a controlled environment for emotional safety and security.

Our younger generations are crying out; we as leaders need to be able to empathetically read, understand, and motivate them through this erupting landscape and keep them keeping on in a healthy mental state.

[Matt Schlegel]

Thanks, Kimberly.

Yes,  Gen Z is entering the workforce during a very fraught time.

This is the first generation fully raised on Social Media.

This is a Generation that grew up with the multiple threats of school shootings, pandemic, and climate change.

They’ve learned that the adults in their lives ostensibly there to protect them are resoundingly failing to do so.

They have no allusions that their employers will behave any differently than other adults in older generations.

One way that Gen Z is responding is by putting their social media skills to use and organizing to create worker-led movements. Famously, there’s a wave of Starbucks workers forming unions.  As of today, over 150 stores in 25 states voted in favor of unionizing and hundreds of stores across the country are awaiting union votes.

Workers at other high profile companies are also unionizing: Amazon, Apple , REI and Trader Joe’s just to name a few.

Younger generations find that building community in the workplace is an effective way to address the mental wellness issues of our age. I am expecting to see this trend continue.

Cynically, some employers have responded by co-opting the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion movement to bust union organizing efforts. In his recent article in the Intercept,  Lee Fang also points out that employers are discontinuing using terms like “human capital” which speaks to the commodification of people at the company.

While these rebranding efforts may work on older generations, Gen Z sees these as the union-busting efforts they are, which further enrages and activates them.  They’re seeking actual material benefits, not just words.

A Gen Z version of Jerry MacGuire might say: Show me the Diversity, the Equity, the Inclusion, and the Money!

Thanks.

Filed Under: Leadership, Millennials, Roaring 2020s, Video

  • « Go to Previous Page
  • Go to page 1
  • Go to page 2
  • Go to page 3
  • Go to page 4
  • Go to page 5
  • Interim pages omitted …
  • Go to page 39
  • Go to Next Page »

Primary Sidebar

Your Number Makes a Difference™

Make your life even better, personally and professionally, by knowing your Enneagram type.
Reveal Your Number with a Free Enneagram Questionnaire »

Follow Matt

  • rss
  • twitter

Get Posts Direct to Your Inbox!

Solve Your Teamwork Dilemmas With Matt’s New Book

View Book Reviews

Latest Posts

  • How Group Goals Can Emerge from Individual Goals
  • How to Use the Enneagram to Create Marketing Narratives
  • Are you Maintaining Healthy Habits and Resiliency in the Roaring 2020s?
  • Corinna Bellizzi interviews Matt Schlegel on the Care More Be Better Podcast
  • Maya Steinberg — Enneagram Type 9 brings a Positive Outlook to Climate Leadership

Categories

Recent Comments

  • Matt Schlegel on I am 2% Neanderthal
  • Jill on I am 2% Neanderthal
  • Matt Schlegel on FAQ: Enneagram — Team Effectiveness
  • Matt Schlegel on How to Lead a Board of Directors Change Management Task Force
  • LBF on How to Lead a Board of Directors Change Management Task Force

Footer

Tweets by EvoTeamMatt

Matt Schlegel

Send Matt a Message »
+1 (650) 924-8923

  • Home
  • Services
  • Success Stories
  • FAQ
  • Blog
  • Contact
  • This Book’s For You
Solve Your Teamwork Dilemmas
With Matt’s New Book

© 2023 Schlegel Consulting · Evolutionary Team Effectiveness · +1 (650) 924-8923 · Email Matt
Creative Consulting by JMF · Web Design by Sarah Ruediger · Sitemap

Your Number Makes a Difference.™ Reveal Your Number with a Free Enneagram Questionnaire »