Evolutionary Team Effectiveness
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What does the Enneagram say about guilt, shame and anxiety? We look to the Enneagram’s main centers – the Gut center, the Heart center and the Head center – for answers.
Guilt emanates from the Gut center – Types 8, 9 and 1. Shame dominates the Heart center – Types 2, 3, and 4. And anxiety famously affects the Head types –Types 5, 6 and 7.
In each center, which type is most acutely affected by these powerful feelings? To answer that, we turn to the Enneagram’s temperament triads using the triad labels in Teamwork 9.0 – the Optimist Triad (Types 3, 7 and 8), the Pessimist Triad (Type 1, 2 and 6) and the Symmetrical Triad (Type 4, 5 and 9).
I make the case that the Pessimist Triad types are those most motivated to avoid feelings of guilt, shame and anxiety, Type 1 actively avoids guilt, Type 2 avoids shame, and Type 6 avoids anxiety. On the other hand, the Optimist Triad types are those that purse the opposites of these strong feelings.
What are the opposites of guilt, shame and anxiety? They are pride, being valued, and happiness, pursued by Type 8s, Type 3s and Type 7s, respectively. That leaves the Symmetrical Triad – Types 4, 5 and 9 – in between, able to be motivated by either pursuit of positive feelings or avoidance of negative feelings.
In summary:
Guilt Avoidance: Type 1 — Pursuit of Pride: Type 8 — Either: Type 9
Shame Avoidance: Type 2 — Pursuit of being Valued: Type 3 — Either: Type 4
Anxiety Avoidance: Type 6 — Pursuit of Happiness: Type 7 — Either: Type 5
This video is an edited version of a talk I gave on this framework.
Matt Schlegel:
What’s the opposite of guilt and what’s the opposite of shame, because maybe those will also give us some ideas about how this framework might work. But I know there’s another thing that does drive me, and that’s anxiety. So really I’m putting in anxiety into the mix of these strong underlying motivators for our feelings and behaviors. So we’ll talk about each one of those three plus what they look like in the opposite. So let’s look at some definitions. So for guilt, the dictionary definition of that is a feeling of having done wrong or failed in an obligation. And I thought about, well, what would be the opposite of that? Where I landed was pride would be the opposite of guilt, which is a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from something you’ve done. So shame is a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior.
Guilt seems to be from an inner sense of having done something wrong where shame, and I don’t know that they’ve captured this very well in this definition, but it seems to be more how the world perceives what you’ve done. Maybe that’s caught in that word humiliation, because humiliation is you need to be humiliated by the outside world. You don’t necessarily just feel humiliated by doing something and nobody else saw you. So I think that that word humiliation in there catches that sense of being assessed by the world for having done something wrong or foolish. Well, what would be the opposite of that? And to me, the opposite would be being valued or appreciated, so being recognized for one’s full worth. So that seemed to be the better definition of anti-shame. And then I added one more, which is anxiety, a feeling of worry, nervousness or unease typically about an imminent event or something with an uncertain outcome.
What is the word for anti-anxiety? Ataraxia is anti-anxiety, and this is a Greek term, a state of serene calmness. Who feels guilt, shame, and anxiety most acutely? I hear the ones, that was a very common theme for them. I had conversations with twos, they tell me that they really don’t feel shame but they’re so focused on helping other people. Where is the shame? If I am totally focused on helping you why should I feel shame? But why is it that they’re so focused on helping other people all the time? Is it because it’s driving them to avoid that feeling of shame?
For anxiety, I would put the six in the category of the one that feels anxiety the most. These three is that they’re the members of the same temperament triad, of the pessimist triad, the one, two, and six. The anti-shame people might be the optimists, the three, the seven, and the eight, who are most pursuing pride, recognition, and happiness. The eight, nine, and one would be mostly centered guilt. The twos, threes and fours would be centered on shame. And then the five, six and sevens would be centered on anxiety. Is there a role for anxiety and anti-anxiety, for shame and anti-shame, for guilt and anti-guilt?
Matt Schlegel presents a framework to explain guilt, shame, anxiety and their opposites using the Enneagrams main triads and the temperament (Hornevian) triads. Also, this talk explores how these powerful feelings contribute to teamwork and problem solving.
Matt Schlegel:
I’ve been playing around with how the Enneagram might help us better understand guilt and shame. When I asked myself when I was thinking about this, “Well, what’s the opposite of guilt?” What’s the opposite of shame? Because maybe those will also give us some ideas about how this framework might work. I also realized as I was working through this, and my personal… I think was Emily who said that there’s a few instances in her life where she said she felt some shame, but they’re kind of few and far between. And that’s me too.
I also feel the same way about guilt, but I know there’s another thing that does drive me, and that’s anxiety. So really I’m putting in anxiety into the mix of these strong underlying motivators for our feelings and behaviors. And so we’ll talk about each one of those three plus what they look like in the opposite, and then also explore how they play in problem solving. As you know, that’s one of the things I love playing around with is how the Enneagram can be used as a problem solving methodology.
So let’s just explore how guilt and shame and anxiety come into problem solving as well. So let’s look at some definitions. So for guilt, just the dictionary definition of that is a feeling of having done wrong or failed in an obligation. I think a few of you actually mentioned those exact same words.
I thought about, “Well, what would be the opposite of that?” Where I landed on was pride would be the opposite of guilt which is a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from something you’ve done. So in that same vein, I also looked at shame. So shame is a painful feeling of a humiliation or distressed caused by consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior.
So it’s a little bit different than guilt. Guilt seems to be mostly from an inner sense of having done something wrong where shame, and I don’t know that they’ve captured this very well in this definition, but it seems to be more around how the world perceives what you’ve done. Maybe that’s caught in that word humiliation, because humiliation is, you need to be humiliated by the outside world. You don’t necessarily just feel humiliated by doing something and nobody else saw you.
So I think that that word humiliation in there catches that sense of being essentially assessed by the world for having done something wrong or foolish. In that term, in those terms, I thought about, “Well, what would be the opposite of that?” And to me, the opposite would be being valued or appreciated by the world. So being recognized for one’s full worth. Again, it’s still in relationship to how others are perceiving you. So that seemed to be the better definition of anti shame.
And then I added one more, which is anxiety and that was a feeling of worry, nervousness or unease typically about an imminent event or something with an uncertain outcome. As a type six, this is definitely me. It doesn’t even have to be an imminent event. It could be about anything.
It could be about something far in the future and I’ll still worry about it. So what is the word for anti-anxiety? There is a word for it. It’s a word I’d never heard of, but it’s ataraxia is anti-anxiety. And this is a Greek term, and some ancient Greek philosopher thought that this was the state to pursue, which is a state of serene calmness. So that seems like a pretty good definition of anti-anxiety. So any thoughts or comments on this so far before we go on?
Scot:
Sure. I’ve got a couple.
Matt Schlegel:
Sure.
Scot:
If you don’t mind me starting. In terms of shame from my perspective, the definition you presented here was a very external focused. It was public humiliation. It was external value. In my case, it’s a very internal thing. It’s me judging myself. It’s me valuing myself. Now, it can manifest itself as the latter, but I think the deep-seated part feels more an internal part. And then in just now anti-anxiety, or I like this new word, I’m also wondering if confidence would be another sort of anti-anxiety. That’s confidence that things are going to work out, that everything is great, that things are okay. That’s one step beyond calmness. It is, “I’m excited. Things will work out.” I don’t know if that could fit in as well.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. Good thoughts. I’ll have to think about confidence. Confidence can be used in a lot of different ways and you can be anxious and confident at the same time. Look at me, I can be confident, but I’ll still be anxious.
Fred:
Part of the anxiety, there’s like six defined types of anxiety that’s under the DSM code of psychology, so it’s a wide variety of anxiety.
Matt Schlegel:
Right. Yeah. Even anxiety, there’s a lot of different modes of it. Then I asked myself, who feels guilt, shame, and anxiety most acutely? This is something where… Based on what I’m hearing, I hear the ones that was a very common theme for them. Unfortunately, we don’t have any twos here tonight, but I’ve had conversations with twos and they tend to tell me that they really don’t feel shame, which is curious, but they’re so focused on helping other people.
So where’s the shame in that? Where is the shame? If I am totally focused on helping you, why should I feel shame? That’s the feeling I was getting from them. But why is it that they’re so focused on helping other people all the time? Is it because of that? It’s almost like that is anti-shame in that it’s driving them to avoid that feeling of shame. For anxiety, I would definitely put the six in the category of the three head types, the five, six, and seven, the one that probably feels anxiety the most.
And assuming that it is these three, the interesting thing about these three is that they’re the members of the same temperament triad that it’s kind of the pessimist triad, the one, two, and six. So that was kind of the thought. In that same vein, I was thinking that the anti-shame people might be the optimists, the three, the seven, and the eight who are most pursuing pride, recognition, and happiness.
So I’ll stop here. I wanted to ask the eights about whether they felt that pride. Roger, you mentioned that it was never doing enough. You felt like you needed to do more. And the underlying thing was guilt, but would you also associate that with, when you do it, a sense of pride?
Roger:
So one thing I would do, I would construct it a little bit different in terms of the… I would look at it within each triad, let’s say the seven… I mean, eight, nine and one triad, which is the instinctual triad. The externalized element is the ones that it’s like you said with the two. The twos don’t necessarily feel the shame unless they really have to think about it. They have to come to this process. I think the eights are the same way around guilt. We don’t really think about guilt. Our first reaction is, “I don’t feel guilty.”
But we have to think about it. What is really driving us? And I think the ones that feel the most shame would be the fours. The fours would really… I would line out the triads differently because I do think the guilt triad, the ones that wrestle with the issue of guilt would be the instinctual triads eight, nine, and one. The shame would be the two threes and fours and the anxiety would be the five, six and sevens. The sevens, yeah. That’s how I would probably play it out.
Matt Schlegel:
I agree with that. I think that the eight, nine, and one would be mostly centered on the guilt. The two threes and fours would be centered on the shame. And then the five, six, and sevens would be centered on the anxiety. And then it comes down to is there a role for both anxiety and anti-anxiety for shame and anti-shame, for guilt and anti-guilt? And the optimists tend to see the glass half full and pursue without necessarily focusing, say, on the guilt, you are more focused on that thing that makes you not even think about guilt, which would be pride.
That’s what I was getting at there. Is it really that anti-guilt that’s driving you? Is it that pursuing that sense of pride that is driving the eight rather than just avoiding the guilt?
Roger:
Well, I think when you’re younger, you wouldn’t use this language or these words, but you’re probably more driven by or… It’s about a sense of pride than it is driving away from the guilt. But the two are linked.
Matt Schlegel:
Absolutely. I think they are linked. I just think that like you’re saying, I think the optimists will be more motivated for the anti-guilt.
Roger:
Right. The twos would be, to me the optimist on that second line.
Matt Schlegel:
Oh really?
Roger:
Yeah. And the threes would be ambiguated and the fours would be the pessimists. And then on the next line, I would flip the five and six.
Matt Schlegel:
Interesting.
Roger:
I would put the core numbers at the ambiguated parts and the fives I think have… They’re more pessimistic, I think than the sixes are. The sixes feel it, but they feel… I don’t know. It would be for me as the straight triad dynamics. But I think the twos, they’re going out there in a sense, sometimes the twos could have no shame by going forward and just going ahead and helping. That’s what allows them to do that because in a sense, they don’t have this sense of they’re not tracking this sense of shame.
Whereas most fours, I know they’re tracking definitely their actions with other people to high degree because of this underlying sense of shame. I mean, that’s just how I would line out that chart. I would agree with the top line. And then the next two I would tweak.
Matt Schlegel:
And so I was almost going to put an… I would put, just based on what I’m hearing, especially from the threes, I would almost put the shame, the word shame next to the three as them being driven by that sense. And then putting appreciation as the anti-shame. Just for instance.
Roger:
Yeah.
Matt Schlegel:
And that’s how I started it, but then I’m like I wasn’t sure because I hadn’t talked to any threes until tonight about this, but then since they were very adamant about feeling shame, so I think that’s probably where I’ll end up putting it. But let’s ask the threes for a second here. When you feel that sense of shame, is it something that you’re actually feeling and trying to avoid? Or how is that influencing you and how are you processing and feeling that?
Scot:
Oh, so let me think about that for a second. What I was going to jump in and say first was I can see threes on both ends of this. When I first met Matt, which was many decades ago, I felt no shame. Well, I wasn’t aware of no shame. I would not have said I felt any shame. I would not have said that shame had any role in my life whatsoever. What I strived to do was to be valued and recognized for all the great things that I could do and do.
So very much where you show here, that was who I was. As I’ve gotten older and realized that there were flaws in the system, I’ve realized that, “No, there is this lot of this internal shame and that’s motivating me to seek external value was to compensate for this internal shame.” Once I address the internal shame, I can release that desire to earn external value because I’m no longer looking to justify my shame and to prove that I’m a good person because I can do that internally.
So in that sense, I’m very much on seeing where the two is. I’m very driven by shame. So it really depends on what level you’re talking about on what stage in one’s life for me at least where I sit. That may have addressed your question as well. Does that help?
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah, it does. Sachiyo, do you have any thoughts you want to add to that?
Sachiyo:
Yes. See, you put the three on the optimist, and it’s not for me. So rather than more the pessimist side.
Matt Schlegel:
Interesting. So the optimist and pessimist, and ambiguated, these are Enneagram triads and they’re the temperament triads. So the eight and the seven tend to be on the optimistic side, and the one, the two and the three and the six tend to be on the pessimistic side. And the four five, and the nine are balanced. So these are prefrontal cortex, and this is Peter’s work where you have a dominance on one side of your prefrontal cortex or the other.
And so the interesting thing about the ambiguated people is that they can balance both and they can feel both, but we’ll come back to that in a second. It’s really interesting how I think when we’re young, we look at things one way and then as we get older we do a little self-examination and figure out what’s really underlying that. So I think, Scot, you brought that up, and Roger, you brought that up. But I’m really interested in going back to Sekai at this point and asking you whether you feel like you fit in with the guilt group more, or the shame group, or the anxiety group, or do you feel at all because you’re ambiguated?
Sekai:
I’d say more shame and guilt, but not so much anxiety. Shame is a little bit more… Yeah, I guess it’s situation specific as well, but when I think of shame, I think of it as not over something I’ve done, but just who I am, how I think of myself as a person. So ashamed of myself versus something I did. Yeah, I don’t know if that answers your question. So I feel a little bit of shame and guilt, but I think what motivates me more is probably shame.
Matt Schlegel:
So this is one of the things I want to understand is that does your shame make you feel humiliated because… See, that’s why I’m trying to distinguish between guilt and shame. That sense of, “I should have done it because it’s the right thing to do and I’m mad at myself for not doing it.” I’m calling that guilt versus I did something and now I feel humiliated for doing it.
Sekai:
For me, it’s not quite humiliation because I feel like it’s personal like nobody else would really know, but it does feel like flawed. Maybe there’s some inherent flaw that I have to overcome something within me that’s so deep that I have to fix. Whereas guilt is more like, “Oh, I made a mistake, or oh, this is an easy quick fix, but shame feels a little bit more inherent, less of an embarrassed. It is definitely social. There’s definitely a play social aspect to it more so, but it doesn’t quite feel like humiliation because I don’t think anybody would know that’s what I was experiencing.
Matt Schlegel:
Is it something that you think that you could fix if you worked on it?
Sekai:
Yeah. With focus and attention, yeah, for sure.
Matt Schlegel:
Could that actually be guilt because it’s something you can fix and you’re just not fixing it because that that’s almost how we defined guilt is, it’s that second part failed in an obligation. You feel this thing that’s wrong. You feel obligated. You feel an obligation to work on it, you just haven’t done it.
Sekai:
Yeah. I think I see shame less of an action and more of… It has more to do with less about what I do and more about who I am. So the actions can shift it, but it still feels different. But these are good questions. I haven’t thought of it in this way. These are really good questions.
Matt Schlegel:
I think we conflate guilt and shame, just like we had a conversation about sympathy and empathy and we tried to really distinguish those two things. I think this is another guilt and shame is another area where it’s sometimes they’re conflated and they’re used interchangeably even. And so I’m asking these questions to just see if we can untangle that little bit.
Sekai:
Yeah. I don’t know if this helps, and I’m not even remembering where I heard it might be. Is it Renee Brown? Her definition I think is guilt is about what you’ve done and shame is for who you are. That’s the definition that I’m working from. I’m not sure if it’s Brene Brown, but it is. That’s something I’d have to look into and see.
Matt Schlegel:
Okay. And it would be for the guilt. It’s what you’ve done or haven’t done. You could also be guilty when you know that you should have done something and you didn’t do it, right?
Sekai:
Right. Yeah.
Roger:
Matt, I wanted to comment before we leave this slide, I don’t know if you’re planning to leave it anytime soon, but whether or not where are we lying out the 8, 9, or one, three, fours, and twos or whatever. I think what is kind of helpful just on the chart for myself is when we feel guilty sometimes or we feel shameful or we have anxiety, we don’t know where to turn to move out of that space. And to me, what the chart does is you create a arrow from the right to the left when you’re stuck in this place of guilt.
Pride is usually a term that when I hear it, I think, “Oh, you don’t want to be prideful or you don’t… But I could see how, in a way, this at least gives us a general direction out of that space, out of that space of guilt is to look towards whatever our number is driving towards the pride.” If you want to move out of your guilt or you want to move out of your shame, how do you feel valued? Or you could move towards trying to feel valued rather than how do I move out of my shame?
How do I move towards feeling valued and recognized? It gives us a direction. And when you’re really stuck in anxiety, how do you move out of that? You move towards what makes you happy. So this chart alone, if we just put arrows from the right to the left, that’d be like, “Oh, okay, that’s helpful.” Now, certain numbers, certain Enneagram types are probably more inclined to be in that far left space than others, but at least on this particular topic of guilt, shame and anxiety, it provides at least a directional pathfinder or something to that effect.
Matt Schlegel:
Yes. I think that might be a great topic for a follow-up session is how to move out of these spaces. I think moving out of these spaces for the six to move to seven is not necessarily an easy thing to do. I think there’s easier ways for sixes to get out of anxiety than to try to be a seven. So I don’t know. At least for six to seven, that might be a tough thing.
Roger:
Well, rather than seeing it as six, moving towards a seven. For the six to ask the question of what makes them happy, just so maybe that wasn’t as helpful to say that there’s certain numbers that are closer to those places. It’s not so much trying to be like those numbers as much as just what makes the six happy.
Matt Schlegel:
Right. And so I think if you’re feeling guilty, then you can always ask, “Well, what have you been proud of? What have you done that’s made you proud of yourself?” And then when you’re feeling shame, you can always ask, “Well, what have you done where people around you have really appreciated what you did?” So yeah, I think those are great questions to ask people if they, or we can ask ourselves when we’re starting to feel that way and then get our minds to focus not necessarily on that source of guilt or shame or anxiety, but on things that have put us in a space that’s the opposite of those things. That’s a really good point. Before I move on, any other thoughts or comments on this?
Emily:
This is Emily. I actually think instead of focusing entirely on moving in one direction and that summer naturally in the direction that everyone else wants to move to, I really was struck with Scot’s comments about having started in one place and really done more self-reflection to recognize where there is shame. And so I think that looking at it in terms of having the fluidity to move in both directions, I think would be helpful for all the Enneagram types to say, “If you’re too focused on pride, how can you pay attention to where there might actually be some guilt,” where if you’re too focused on guilt, where can you focus more on? I think there can be value in paying attention to all sides of each of these spectra, I would say.
Matt Schlegel:
Right. I think, if you know asked a seven also that especially a younger seven, they probably wouldn’t necessarily associate with anxiety until they got older and realized, “Oh, that is the underlying thing here.” For the ones, when did you start to associate some of that feeling of that inner critical voice with a sense of guilt? I mean, you all really emphasized that and brought it up. When do you think you made that connection? Very early?
Emily:
Boy, I really don’t know when I would’ve started naming it as guilt. I don’t have a good sense of that.
Matt Schlegel:
How about you, Morgan?
Morgan:
I was pretty young in middle school. If I said something mean to someone, I’d feel really horrible about it or I’d feel like my stomach hurt and I was like, “Oh, I feel so bad. I’m a bad person.” But then it was like, “Oh, so I shouldn’t do those things, so I don’t feel that way.”
Matt Schlegel:
Right. They’re very strong socializing forces, guilt, shame, and anxiety.
Scot:
I like Emily’s point that it’s not necessarily… I don’t want to use the word good, but I will ’cause I can’t think of a better word to use, to be in any one particular corner edge of this diagram because there’s value and benefit all around it. So it isn’t like if you’re on the right, you’re trying to get to the left. I like the thought of if you’re always focusing on the left, it’s good to get in touch with the energy you have that’s on the right. And maybe even up and down. I haven’t thought about that, but clearly left and right I think there’s value in it.
Matt Schlegel:
I was thinking about this in terms of problem solving and for those of you who aren’t familiar with using the Enneagram as a problem solving tool, one of the reasons why the Enneagram types our numbers is because that’s the order in which those dynamics show up in problem solving. So for instance, what’s the first step in problem solving? “Hey, that’s not right. It shouldn’t be like that. It should be like this.” And that’s the dynamic of the type one who is highly aware when things aren’t right and is alert to that and then wanting to go in and correct it.
So it was really interesting to me to see that the first two steps in problem solving, both the one and the two are in the pessimist triad and the glass half full or half empty triad, so to speak. And that one, that strong sense of guilt it with the one is driving that first step and how that drive to help, which I think is shame avoidance is that second step and how it’s predominantly those two that show up first.
For the last about year and a half, I’ve been working on the climate crisis. So I’ve jumped in with both feet and immersed myself in groups that are working on the climate crisis. Now, the climate crisis to me is one of the biggest problems that humanity faces. So it’s a great lab to see how people are responding to solving this problem. What I’ve noticed in working in this area for the last 18 months or so, the people who consistently show up are ones, twos and sixes.
They’ve form the base of the people who are showing up. Okay, well I get it. Ones, they’re kind of the first ones. They’re going to be alert to the problem and show up and twos are going to want to help. So they’re going to show up. But why the six? And it occurred to me that when the six gets stressed out, they move towards the direction of the three dynamic. And so they’re kind of showing up in that anxious state as exuding that three dynamic of wanting to get stuff done and wanting to solve the problem.
So it made sense to me how you had those three types that consistently show up and how each one of those types… I’m getting the sense that guilt probably really drives the ones, and shame really drives the twos and anxiety really drives the sixes. And so you have these really three strong drivers, these three aspects of feelings that are compelling this group to show up.
The other interesting thing about it is you get an internal dynamic, which is the one, the suppressed anger type, and then you get the external dynamic of the two… Or excuse me, if it’s internal for the one, external for the two, and then suppressed for the six. So you also get those three dynamics showing up with this particular set of three. So I put a picture of a very old Prius because I imagine that the first Prius drivers were probably type ones. So then who shows up later? And the types that tend to not show up as much are the threes, the sevens and the eights.
They’ll show up, maybe not in a Prius, but maybe now that it’s cool to drive a Tesla. You’ll see the threes, the sevens, and the eights show up in a Tesla, but in terms of just engaging consistently and working on the problem, I don’t see as many threes and sevens and eights interested in working on that problem. I’m guessing it’s because the three needs to see a path to success and recognition and the seven needs to see a path to fun and happiness, and eight needs to see a path to a prideful accomplishment.
Maybe they’re just not seeing it yet, which is why they tend not to show up. But there is a group that does show up and that’s the ambiguated folks, and they come in and out. They’re less consistent and they will tend to gauge the community. And the fours are oscillating back and forth between engaging and not engaging with the community. And the fives seem to be oscillating back and forth between, “Can I do something fun like a seven or is it I just feel anxious like the six and I want to do something?”
And then the nines, I really haven’t had much experience with nines showing up, but I guess that it would be somewhere around processing guilt and pride that would encourage them to show up as well. What do you think, Scot?
Scot:
I was wondering if that was coming. This makes sense that’s why I don’t have any comments to add. I like the idea and I can sort of identify as a three. Yeah, I want to know that I can either make a difference or that there’s some chance of success that there’s a path to having a successful outcome. And if I don’t see that I’m less likely to jump into the problem. I love a problem where I can see, “Oh, here’s a problem I can fix. I don’t know how to do it, I just got to do it. Boom, I’m on it.” These complex things sometimes can be challenging because they’re complex, but even then they’re usually I can see an endpoint, right?
Matt Schlegel:
Right.
Scot:
For me, that makes sense and the rest of this as well.
Roger:
Matt, when I look at this, the first two slides make makes sense. But the third one I feel like it is the context in which it is applied. It’s the context of people showing up to a group setting to solve this problem. Whereas I almost feel like for the fours and fives and the nines, the fact that it’s a group setting creates a different dynamic at play than trying to solve the problem at hand. Whereas if you were just to talk about climate change, I think a five would deal with it maybe much more individually than showing up as part of a group process to tackle the issue of climate change.
Whereas in the four, I think maybe that might be true too, or the way the type of events that they go to might be different than… And then again, for the nine, it’s a question of what type of group is it? I mean, is there a lot of cohesiveness or is there a lot of contention in that process? So I don’t know if I would lay out the four, five and nine. I think there’s as much, much question about the nature of the group and the fact that it is a group that comes into play with those particular Enneagram types.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. Well, I do notice that you will get… I’ll have fours. So I have a climate group and I get fours to show up occasionally. I get fives to show up occasionally. I attend other climate groups and I notice that fours and fives show up there. I know one climate group that’s led by a five and it’s a book club. So that’s the perfect thing for the… That’s like my symbol for the five is a book. Right? So of course the five is going to be doing the book club.
To me, the interesting thing about the fours, the fives and the nines, and I think this is just the pattern with humanity in general is our brain wants to minimize energy. And so for instance, I am right-handed so I do not have to expend any energy at all. When I go to write something, I just pick up the pen with my right hand and I start writing.
It was a very minimal energy decision for me to do that. Left-handed people are the same, but ambidextrous people, it’s not quite as easy for them. They actually have to expend some energy and figure out… Well, my wife Helen, right? When she was learning to play hockey, she needed to figure out do I hold the stick this way or do I hold it this way? And she had to practice both ways to figure out what was the right way for her.
For me, it would have been, I wouldn’t have had to think at all because I’m right-handed. It’s just done. When she was learning to play golf, she had to get some left-handed clubs, she had to get some right-handed clubs. She had to take swings and practice with both. And then she’d talked to a coach and he looked at her swinging and he said, “You know what, you should probably swing left-handed.”
So it took energy for her to get there because her motor cortex is ambiguous. It’s not right dominant or left dominant. Well, it’s the same thing with our prefrontal cortex. So my prefrontal cortex is I am going to be highly sensitive to danger and I am just going to be on the alert for that. That’s just kind of what my brain is wired to do. Whereas the seven is the opposite. They are wired to look for fun and they’re going to be pursuing that. And that’s kind of hardwired into their brain.
But the five is ambiguated. So they have to make a decision. They’ll have to look at like, “Do I want to do what the sevens doing or do I want to do what the six is doing?” Right? And I think oftentimes it’s a lot funner to do what the seven is doing than what the six is doing. So they may end up going and doing what the seven is doing if the six is stressed over some problem.
I think it’s the same way with all the ambiguated types because they have to make a decision of, am I trying to focus on not feeling guilty or am I focus focusing on working on my game so I can have pride of what I’ve done? And then we also see this in politics too. There’s the group on the left and there’s the group on the right. They’re pretty much locked in. And then you have this ambiguated middle that is persuadable and it’s just really comes down to which of those narratives, the right or the left are going to be more compelling for these persuadables in the middle to follow. I think that’s all I have for my slides. Thank you so much.
Matt Schlegel presents to an SBA T.H.R.I.V.E group of emerging leaders on how to use the Enneagram to create marketing narratives. Matt shares how to create a narrative for each Enneagram type, and then works with two leaders in the group to create specific narratives, one to market to Enneagram Type 4 clientele and the other to market to Enneagram Type 6 customers.
#leadership #Enneagram #marketing
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Let me welcome Matt to the SBA Thrive group for entrepreneurship and all the CEOs of the group. Matt is going to talk to us about the nine market narratives for using the Enneagram to market your business. Is that correct? Right. Yeah, I’m pretty sure.
So anyway, I’m just going to introduce Matt Schlegel. I’ve known him for quite a while. I’m learning a lot through him through the Enneagram. He’s teaching me a lot, but anyway. So Matt, why don’t you just go ahead and get started. As the other people want to come in, I’ll just add them.
Matt Schlegel:
Sounds great. Thank you, Mari-Lyn for having me speak today. I’m delighted to be here. I appreciate the interest in your group for this powerful tool that I use called the Enneagram. This is a follow-up session to a previous session where we just talked about an overview of what the Enneagram is and how it can be used as a personality dynamic system to better understand yourself, better understand others on your team, better understand the interpersonal dynamics that occur. The Enneagram is a wonderful tool for that.
But, it can be used for so much more. One of the things that we’ll talk about today is how to construct a marketing narrative that will tune to specific Enneagram types. If you are knowledgeable about the type of person that you are marketing to, then you can craft a message that is specifically tuned for their Enneagram type that will really resonate with them, so it really becomes a very powerful communication tool as well. Each Enneagram type has specific things that they’re listening for and specific things that they’re motivated to do. In as much as we can craft a narrative designed to that, then it really makes a difference.
I will just jump ahead. Just a little bit about me. I have been using the Enneagram now for over 20 years. I started using it in the way that most people do with friends and family, found that it was very powerful. I introduced it to my team at work, and it proved to be a very effective communication tool there. Then, I asked this question, “Why are the Enneagram types numbers? Why not colors or letters or…” It turns out there is a reason why they are numbers. It’s because it describes the order of a process, and it turns out it’s the exact order… Those Enneagram dynamics are exactly in the order that they appear in human problem-solving, so I started using the Enneagram as a problem-solving system, and it works amazingly well as that as well.
It’s not a well known aspect of the Enneagram, which is why I ended up writing a book about that particular aspect, how to use the Enneagram as a problem-solving tool with your teams. This is my book, Is Teamwork 9.0. It’s available on Amazon. I encourage people who want to explore that side of the Enneagram to check it out.
Today we’re going to look at yet another aspect of the Enneagram as we dive into these lines that we see inside of the Enneagram. When we look about problem-solving in general, you can see it’s one through nine. But if you start with any specific point, say… Let’s start with seven. You can see that there’s these blue lines inside of the Enneagram that trace from seven to five to eight to two to four to one, and then back to seven. At an individual level, not necessarily as a team level, but as an individual level, that tends to be a trajectory that we will take as we work through individual problem-solving and as we construct narratives from our specific point of view.
That’s really what we’re going to talk about today, is how to construct a narrative out of these lines in the center. This is very good if you, say, understand that I’m going to be speaking to a group of sevens or I’m going to be speaking to a group of threes. In the broadest sense, if you don’t know what your target demographic looks like, then you probably want to stick with the one through nine narrative around the circle. But if you’re going to be marketing to a seven, then there is a better way to do it that will really resonate with the seven.
As you become familiar with the Enneagram, you will start to see that certain Enneagram types are drawn to certain roles. For instance, I find that at companies oftentimes a chief financial officer tends… There tend to be a lot of type ones in that role. Or if you’re a financial controller at a company, there tends to be a lot of type sixes and on, and on, and on. There’s specific types that are drawn to certain roles. If you know, “Hey, I’m marketing to CFOs at companies. I want to craft a narrative around that type one path of those lines in the middle,” so that’s kind of what the main idea is that we’re trying to do here.
Let’s start with the seven. If you look at those lines, it will start with the seven, then it will go to the five, then the eight, the two, the four, one, and back to seven. Now, we’ve talked about that seven personality dynamic. One of the main things that the seven wants is to keep things fun, and positive, and light. They tend to be friendly, talkative, charming. That’s the starting point. In crafting your narrative, you want to start with something that is fun and positive because that will catch their attention.
Then, the next step in that will be to go to the five. Sevens love information. They love to have their brains tickled, so you want to provide them with information. That’s in that Enneagram type five dynamic. Then, going from there, you want to show them how you can use this information to take action. That’s the type eight. Then, you want to show how that action that you’re taking is going to be very helpful, and that’s the type two dynamic. Then, you want to know from there how that helpfulness will let them stand out as being special or unique. That’s that type four dynamic. Then, it goes back to the type one where sevens really resonate with principles. So you can bring it back to the principle of why you did all of that, so you ground it in principles. That’s the type one dynamic. Then you bring it back to, “Wasn’t that fun? And we had so much fun doing it.”
You can see how just following those lines around you can create and craft a story that will really resonate with that type seven personality. Does that make sense, Mari-Lyn, when I describe it that way?
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
Yes. Thank you.
Matt Schlegel:
Awesome. Awesome. In this slide here, we deconstruct each one of those elements from that type seven point of view, so you’ll be able to refer back to this slide, but it’s essentially what I just described.
Then, as you move around, each one of these types has a different starting point. Now, the order when you’re looking at the blue lines connecting the seven, the five, the eight, the one, the four, two, it follows in the order of the direction of the arrows. It’s just the starting point is different for each type. When you start with the five, you want to lead with, “I’m going to provide you with lots of information.” Fives love that information. Then, you start there and then you follow it around through the eight, the two, the four, the one, the seven, and then back to the five. That is the way you craft a story with the fives.
Now, fives, engineers. They tend to be researchers. Anybody in academia will kind of fall into this five category. Whether they’re a type five or not, it’s kind of the world that they live in, researchers, that type of area. If you’re marketing to folks in that area, you want to use a five strategy.
Then, let’s go to the next, so eight. The eight strategy is starting with action. When you’re marketing to a type eight… And a lot of CEOs are type eights, very action oriented. You want to lead with, “We’re going to get stuff done here. We’re going to take action,” and then you go through the remaining steps of, “It will be very helpful. It will make you stand out. It’s really based in principles. It will be fun. It will be informative. And we’re going to get a lot done.” That’s how you build the narrative with the eight. But just remember to start with action with them.
With the two, this is starting with caring about other people and that being helpful. That’s how you resonate with the two, is you start off with appreciation, and kindness, and giving, and caring. Now, Mari-Lyn, I know you’re a type two, and so I know that this really would resonate with you. What do you think of this approach for the type two?
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Yeah, pretty close. Pretty close. But as you’re talking, too, I see myself in other roles, in other numbers, too, so [inaudible 00:15:18]. But, that’s true.
Matt Schlegel:
That’s exactly what this speaks to. This is one of the reasons why I love the Enneagram, is because we do move through all these dynamics in our… As we move through our lives and we move through our personal problem-solving, we are all cycling through these. That’s why crafting a narrative in this way will just really speak to each Enneagram type, and knowing that starting point is really helpful.
For twos, we know if you’re marketing to caregivers, lot of twos in caregiving. Actually, lots of different service roles, fire firefighters, police, the military, a lot of twos are drawn to those types of service roles. So when you’re marketing to an organization that is really based in providing services to their customers or their community, you can use this two narrative because it will really speak to them.
All right. So, same thing. I think you get the idea with the four. You want to start off with the uniqueness and the emotional impact that you’ll have. Then with the one, I mentioned before, a lot of CFOs in the one category, so you want to start off with precision, and accuracy, and competency, and principles. These are things that resonate with type ones, like it will resonate with CFOs because that’s kind of their world.
That kind of gives you a way of crafting messages for all of the Enneagram types that are connected by these blue lines, because you can see they’re all interconnected. But now let’s go over to the red lines. This is the triangle, the three, the six, and the nine. The same idea will happen here. When you’re going to start with the three, you want to start off with a success narrative. Threes are drawn to success. They want success, so they want to see how whatever you’re presenting is going to be successful. So you lead there, and then you move to the six dynamic, which is predictable. You want to have something that’s essentially a system for continuous success.
Then, after that, you move to the nine dynamic and show how this success will end up creating harmony within the community that the three is working with so that success will reflect well on them. You don’t want conflict or discord where… The three would be very sensitive to things not going well, so you want to show how whatever you’re presenting is going to be very harmonious. Then you come back to that success. You can see how if you are a three, these are the points that are going to be really important to the three, which is why it makes it such a powerful narrative when you’re marketing to threes. All right?
Now you get to the six. Again, we’re just now sticking to that triangle in the middle, and we’re… Sixes are looking for consistency, for low risk. They want it well thought out, all these things, so with an eye towards predictability. You lead with that, and then you show how the community will embrace that system, that predictableness, and allow things to continue on in a predictable, non-chaotic way. Then you show how all of this leads to successful outcomes. Then, you finally draw back to that predictableness. This is the narrative that would work really well with the six.
Then, the nine is leading with the harmoniousness. You remember nines, they want to minimize conflict in the community, and they want to make sure that everybody’s perspectives are taken into account. You lead with that part of your narrative of how everybody is going to feel really good about this solution, and then you go to the success. It will lead to success, it will be predictable, and it’s very harmonious. Everybody will love it. That’s the narrative that you want to construct for the type nine.
That gives you a brief overview of how to think about narratives for each one of the Enneagram types. Then again, if you don’t know, or it’s early on, or you’re working with somebody new that you haven’t met and you don’t know their Enneagram type, then you can fall back on the generalized form of the narrative, which is to simply follow the numbers from one to nine. You can use essentially a problem-solving narrative, a generalized problem-solving narrative when you’re constructing that because everybody will resonate with that. You start off with the problem and the goal. You show what stakeholders are impacted and who will care about that problem and that goal. You’ll want to show all the great ideas for success, so that’s step three. You want to show how you’ve taken into account any emotional feedback from those ideas and how you’ve vetted the most positive ideas with the community.
Now you move over to five, which is where you analyze the ideas, so you want to show how the idea that you’re presenting has been validated and will be effective. You move then to six, and you want to show how you have a plan in place to implement the idea. Then, essentially, in a marketing narrative, you’re working on steps one through six, and then your action is the seven. You’re promoting this plan to get something done, and you want to get your buy-off from your clients or customers, and then you want to act on the plan, and that’s step eight. Then, you want to make sure that the solution was effective for your customer or clients, and that’s nine. You could see how you can essentially follow this generic marketing narrative one through nine just around the circle. Those are the different ways to construct a marketing narrative using the Enneagram just really, really briefly. I hope you enjoyed that, and love to hear your thoughts on it.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Thank you. Actually, I think after your presentation, I actually learned a little bit more about the other numbers. It was like, “Oh, okay.” That was very good. Thank you.
Matt Schlegel:
You’re very welcome.
Daniel:
When you’re engaging in this process, what’s the timeline between one through nine? How much time are you putting into it?
Matt Schlegel:
It really depends on the situation. In the case where you are presenting to a customer or a client or a prospective client, you can construct this narrative and lay it out in 30 minutes. That means you’ll have had to do all of that work beforehand to validate the ideas and all that. But when you’re laying it out, you can just lay it out very sequentially. If you’re actually working with teams to solve a problem, that’s a different thing. Does that answer your question? Do you want to talk about team problem-solving or just using it as a marketing narrative?
Daniel:
No, the marketing narrative, I mean, that’s really what I’m keying off of, and that makes sense. I appreciate the clarity. Thank you.
Katie:
Thank you so much for that information. I own a dance studio, and this week I wanted to roll out a couple key things for… Not necessarily Black Friday special, but it is a special. I wanted to target people who had taken first lessons but never really continued, maybe because of price, because we are pretty pricey, or those people who had taken four lessons, which is the first layer, and never really continued. When you talked about doing a marketing narrative that covers all across, that was super helpful.
In a sense of timeline, most of the marketing tactics are either email. Some of them are even texts. This is the first time I’m going to go through texts. I have to really shorten that into, I don’t know, four sentences with a visual. Anyways, that was super helpful to me. If you have any other tidbits on specials that’s happening, especially for the holidays, to just incentivize people to continue or purchase, that would be great.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. Well, I love that because I think that you probably have a sense of the type. How old? Are these junior high school level students or high school students, adults?
Katie:
Oh, these are adults.
Matt Schlegel:
They’re adults.
Katie:
Yeah, these are adults.
Matt Schlegel:
You might have a sense for the types of people who are coming to your class, are they mostly sevens or are they… I mean, that would probably be one group that you could construct the marketing narrative to. I would imagine that there might be some fours in there as well, just people who are very artistic and expressive and want to use different forms of emotional communication. You might have some fours in there as well. Do you have any sense of the types of Enneagram types that are your clients?
Katie:
Absolutely fours, people who appreciate music and connecting in a different sense, people who are… As of right now, I think most of the people who didn’t purchase maybe are a little bit more money… or budget focus. That’s why the incentives are there, like sweeter deal to start dancing, just so that they can try. Because sometimes it’s, unfortunately, you have to try it for at least… Not just four lessons just to get it in and really fall in love with it because you can only feel a progress over a little bit longer period of time. You do get a little bit of progress in a sense of one month, but imagine if they were there for three months or six months. They would feel a lot more progress, and they could see fuller the investment if they’re very short term like that thinking.
They want things quick and easy, right away. But if they could see just a little bit longer to be part of the community, to improve a little bit longer, longer sense of time, I think they would have a better idea and maybe be more lifelong students. That’s really my goal. I don’t want 100%. Maybe 80% lifelong students. No matter what, that dancing… Ballroom dancing is what I do.
Matt Schlegel:
Oh, okay.
Katie:
Ballroom dancing and partner dancing is going to be a part of their lives in a positive way. It just takes a little bit of time, like learning a language. You learn a language for, I don’t know, four lessons, and it doesn’t really impact you as much as you would in a consistent basis. It just takes a little bit of investment, and time, and money.
Matt Schlegel:
Let’s imagine that we’re marketing to a four or a group of fours. Some things about the fours that you’ll want to know are that they really want to be able to express themselves in emotionally impactful ways. That would be where you’d want to lead, is, “We’re going to give you the tools and the platform to be able to fully express this very beautiful and emotionally impactful dance.”
Then you might want to say, “We don’t want…” Now we move to one with the principles. “We don’t want cost to be a barrier to you having fun with this amazing form of dance, and so we want to give you…” Now I’m moving to five. “We want you to be able to have access to all the resources that we have that will help you achieve this,” and then you’re moving to eight, “and then be able to dance and fully express yourself.” That’s the action. “Then imagine as you grow how helpful that will be to your partner, and you’ll be helping each other.” That’s the two. Then you get back to four. “Then you and your partner will be able to create something beautiful and unique together.”
Katie:
I love that. Thank you.
Matt Schlegel:
Does that make sense?
Katie:
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Schlegel:
When you construct it that way that, you’re just following the way the four naturally thinks, and that story will like, “Oh, yeah. I want to do that.”
Katie:
That’s great. Super helpful. Thank you.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Hey, Kate. I don’t know about Matt, the promoter, would they be a customer too or not?
Matt Schlegel:
I think you’re talking about the seven.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Yeah.
Matt Schlegel:
I think you find sevens in any social community. Sevens are very social. They like being in community. The nice thing about the four narrative is that it does overlap with the seven narrative. It’s just the sevens will be leading with the fun as opposed to that uniqueness of their personal creative emotional expression. The fun is more important than the emotional expression. For the four, the emotional expression is more important. But you can see the narratives overlap, so the sevens can be drawn into that as well.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Cool. Daniel, did you have any questions far as marketing or…
Daniel:
No. Matt was able to answer the questions I had. I’m going to be working with this in our marketing department and see where we go from there. But if I have something else, I’ll reach out directly. Thank you.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Great.
Matt Schlegel:
Perfect. What kind of folks do you tend to market to, Daniel?
Daniel:
We run private security consulting firm, so we’re working with larger industries, production, and manufacturing. We do colleges and universities. We work with hoteliers, car dealerships, work with municipalities, and small government.
Matt Schlegel:
Nice. For that type of business, you are likely to be marketing to the type sixes for the most part. Because you can see one of the things that the six likes is to minimize risk. Essentially, that’s what you’re doing, You’re a risk minimization firm.
Daniel:
Absolutely.
Matt Schlegel:
You want to build, I would say, a narrative around you’re going to provide predictability, you’re going to create a harmonious environment for everybody that is conflict-free because you’re there to make sure there’s not conflict. You’re going to allow your customers to maximize their success, and you are going to just be that predictable service in the background that is making sure that they can achieve their success.
Daniel:
Matt, and I think you’re spot on, especially with the predictability part. What our clients love is knowing we’re there and not needing to talk to us. They don’t want to be bothered. If they know we’re there and we’re on the job, I mean, that’s a huge selling point for us. No, I think you’re spot on, man. This is good stuff.
Matt Schlegel:
Awesome. Awesome. I mean, it’s pretty remarkable once you know what you’re targeting how you can distill down that message that will really hit all of the main points.
Daniel:
I love it.
Matt Schlegel:
Well, great. I’m glad that I was able to share this and hopefully offer some tidbits of advice that will help you achieve your successes.
Daniel:
Matt, we can get ahold of you on LinkedIn?
Matt Schlegel:
Absolutely. I’m on LinkedIn. I’ll have my contact information on these slides. I’m happy to share those as well.
Daniel:
That’d be great.
Katie:
Thank you.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Hey, you’re welcome, guys. Well, thank you so much, Matt, for coming back on and going through your presentation. I certainly really enjoyed it. I learned a lot, too, but anyway.
Matt Schlegel:
I really appreciate the opportunity, Mari-Lyn. It’s always a pleasure.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Hey, you’re welcome.
Daniel:
Happy holidays, sir.
Matt Schlegel:
Yep. Happy holidays.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Happy holidays, everybody. In that ending, we’ll just maybe end the call, unless you have something else you’d like to say, Matt.
Matt Schlegel:
No. Again, it’s just been a real pleasure. I think we all can learn so much from the Enneagram and the different aspects of how you use it. It’s one of those tools that the deeper you go, the more you learn.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Yes.
Matt Schlegel:
I encourage people to explore it, and play with it, and learn, and grow with it.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Are you still doing your community Enneagram groups or-
Matt Schlegel:
I do. I have a monthly group that meets. We discuss different topics related to the Enneagram. Well, it’s not just beginning Enneagram. Most of the people who come to the program are very familiar with the Enneagram. We come up with these different applications, just like the one we went over today, how to apply the Enneagram to marketing. The one that we did this last month after the election was how does the Enneagram relate to politics. That was a very lively discussion.
We’re going to take a break in December, but we’re going to come back in January, and we’re going to talk about empathy and sympathy. Each Enneagram type has a different take on empathy and sympathy. I’ve come up with a model that goes over the different empathy and sympathy levels of each Enneagram type and put that into a framework that’s easy to understand. That, I think, will be really helpful.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Especially for a lot of workplaces or people that need the extra boost or how to cope.
Matt Schlegel:
Yes, yes. Type twos, I’ll say right now, Mari-Lyn, type twos are the most empathetic and the most sympathetic.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Yes. Yeah.
Matt Schlegel:
You’re firing on all cylinders there.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Yeah, yeah. Well, certainly for the type of work I’m doing right now, certainly need it.
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly. That’s why you’re drawn to the work that you do.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Great. Thank you, everybody, for showing up today. You will be able to get a recording of this call, because I did record it. I’ll send you out the links. Okay, everybody. Have a great day. I guess we’ll see you soon. Happy [inaudible 00:40:54].
Matt Schlegel:
See you guys soon. Thank you.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Have a great-
Katie:
Thanks so much.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
… happy Thanksgiving.
Matt Schlegel:
Thank you.
Mari-Lyn Harris:
Bye-bye.
Maya Steinberg shares how her feelings of hope and optimism motivate her to action and leadership in the climate space. While it was feelings of sadness that first alerted her to the need for action, these feelings are not what keep her feeling empowered day-to-day. Though some climate leaders tap into anger for motivation, Enneagram Type 9s tend to minimize anger and lean into other feelings for motivation. As Climate Justice Development Manager at Hammond Climate Solutions, Maya manages the clean energy programs and supports the philanthropic efforts for her organization. Hammond Climate Solutions is on a mission to expedite positive change for a just and livable future for all. Maya is dedicated to ensuring that climate solutions are implemented in a just and equitable way. Maya is an excellent example of how Enneagram Type 9s become leaders in the climate space, and she share the feelings that motivate her.
Connect with Maya here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maya-steinberg-50ab951a8/PA
Learn about Hammond Climate Solutions here: https://www.hammondclimatesolutions.com/
#Leadership #Energy #climatechange #EmotionalIntelligence #EQ
Matt Schlegel:
Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using their feelings as a leadership tool for both inspiration and motivation. Today I’m speaking with Maya Steinberg, a climate leader who brings a positive outlook to her work on the climate crisis. Maya shared that she is Enneagram Type 9. And listen closely to her emphasize the importance of staying positive and how she’s connected with feelings of sadness and anxiety, but keeps a focus on those positive feelings. And now for the conversation. Today, I’m joined by Maya Steinberg, Climate Justice Development Manager at Hammond Climate Solutions. Hammond Climate Solutions is on a mission to expedite positive change for adjust and livable future for all. Maya manages the clean energy programs and supports the philanthropic efforts for her organization. Maya is dedicated to ensuring that climate solutions are implemented in a just and equitable way. Maya, thank you so much for joining me today.
Maya Steinberg:
Thank you so much for having me.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah, so great to have you, and I’m really looking forward to our conversation. And, what I’m really trying to do is understanding the underlying feelings that impassion people into their leadership and actions in the climate movement. And I wanted to just start off and ask you, how are you feeling now about climate change?
Maya Steinberg:
Well, I would say my feelings are honestly all over the place. Generally, I’m a very optimistic and positive person. I definitely value inner peace and harmony in my environment. But, when it comes to the climate crisis in particular, at times I’m hopeful, and optimistic, and strong. But, at other times, I feel discouraged and uncertain, just because, I mean, we all see the news. We all know rising sea levels and temperatures, rampant wildfires and droughts, among many, many other disasters. So, it’s hard to remain hopeful, but just being the optimistic person I am, I know that, that is the guiding light for me in terms of how I handle my thoughts on climate change as a whole.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. Yeah. And certainly, we need to find hope and optimism as we work through this. It’s so important. And I so appreciate you bringing that hopeful, positive, and optimistic energy to this. And one of the things I like to understand, because there’s usually a different starting point for people, and the big three are generally anger, some people start with anger, “Ugh. That just frustrates me.” Another one is just sadness. And, another one is anxiety. And, I know we all cycle through these, but would you characterize one of those as your starting point?
Maya Steinberg:
In terms of, what made me feel impassioned to make a difference?
Matt Schlegel:
Yes.
Maya Steinberg:
That’s a great question. Probably, sadness. When I look at the world around me… I grew up in Los Angeles, a major city, so I didn’t have real exposure to the natural environment. So, it wasn’t until I entered adulthood where I started camping, spending more time in nature. And, although I did go to an outdoor sports camp when I was younger. So, we would go into different creeks, and rivers, and lakes. So, I had that exposure to the natural environment. But just as I’ve gotten older, just becoming more aware and seeing my surroundings change, that has… And also, when you think about the impacts that climate justice has, the fact that marginalized communities are impacted first and worst, the fact that defenseless animals are having their habitats and ecosystems destroyed. I mean, I think that definitely instills the feeling of sadness. So, I think, for me, I try to use that as a motivating factor in terms of wanting to make a difference and make a change for the world.
Matt Schlegel:
Right. Right. So, just your compassion for the other life, that you’ve now experienced this. And you bring up such a good point, because so many people who grow up in an urban environment, they aren’t necessarily connected with nature. And so, it’s hard to appreciate what we’re losing, unless you’ve experienced nature at some point in your life.
Maya Steinberg:
Definitely.
Matt Schlegel:
For somebody who grew up in the South Pacific with beautiful, colorful coral reefs, and then seeing them turned bleached white, it’s just got to be devastating for them. But they have that close, personal connection with what’s going on, and oftentimes a lot of us are so busy leading a more urban life that we don’t see that happening. So, that is really such a good point. So, how now do you find that these feelings are influencing your behaviors and your direction as a leader?
Maya Steinberg:
Sure. So, I would say, again, generally I try my best to be a very positive and optimistic person. So, I like to be fueled by that. I mean, of course, the sadness, the climate anxiety, that is definitely a source of fuel to keep people going. But, I choose to focus on the positive and the win. So, I use the more negative views to push myself to work harder and to make more of an effort in terms of networking and just spreading the word, raising awareness of the climate crisis. And, I think also, just having discussions with people that have both similar and differing viewpoints than me is something that has definitely been beneficial in terms of seeing how different leaders and different people across the movement are influenced by climate change.
Matt Schlegel:
Right. Right. Yeah, it’s interesting. Sadness is such a important feeling for raising awareness, and compassion, and caring, and it’s a really good starting point. But, I find that the feelings that really motivate us to action are more anxiety and anger. Those are the two that get you going.
Maya Steinberg:
Mm-hmm.
Matt Schlegel:
And I noticed that you mentioned climate anxiety as a motivating force. And I relate to that because I think that’s one that really energizes me when I’m not feeling sad. Then, my anxiety for, “Oh, we got to do something,” is a important one to get you going and get you doing stuff.
Maya Steinberg:
But I also feel like there is such a fine line between those more negative feelings and also just having a general feeling of hopelessness or despair, because I think if it’s the latter feelings, it’s not going to motivate you to try to make a positive change, to try to make an impact, because people can tend to be focused just on the negative. So I think, a pinch of that, just a healthy amount is great, and I think is motivating. But I think, just focusing on the positive on what we as individuals can do, even starting at the local level and then working our way up to the state level, national level, global level, I think, is something that has definitely resonated with me as well.
Matt Schlegel:
And what is it that you are finding right now in your leadership that really is the beacon or guiding light for that optimism? What is drawing you towards that optimism?
Maya Steinberg:
Well, I think, we’re obviously living in a time where there’s a lot of different opinions, but I would say that there is the general consensus that climate change is real and climate change is happening. And I think that the millennials, Gen Z, the younger generations, this is something that is at the forefront of their agenda. So, when I think about the future, I’m hopeful, and I’m positive that effective climate policies will be put into place, and that we’ll be able to mitigate the climate crisis, and hopefully undo some of the damage that’s done. But just knowing that the rising generations are so passioned and invigorated by making a positive change for the planet is something that definitely gives me a source of optimism.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. Just the increasing awareness and passion about doing something and how it’s becoming easier and easier to build these communities that are interested in doing the work, I agree, that’s very, very motivating, and hopeful, and optimistic.
Maya Steinberg:
Mm-hmm.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. Thank you. So now, what advice would you give to leaders and aspiring leaders, who are, they themselves having starting to have feelings about the climate crisis?
Maya Steinberg:
I love this question, just because I think that there are so many different answers and so many different right answers. There is no wrong answer just because it really depends on the individual person. But I would say, spreading the word, getting involved, volunteering. I know threefifty.org and the Climate Reality Project have chapters in different cities across the country, and I know their work is virtual as well. I think that’s a great starting point. But I also think that if you are experiencing some of the more negative emotions or climate anxiety, just knowing that you’re not alone and experiencing those feelings, I think, is definitely beneficial. I think having an open dialogue with family, friends, peers, mentors, just people around you that you’re close to, I think that could be a great way to combat those more negative feelings and just being proactive, I think.
Maya Steinberg:
Personally, since rejoining the climate realm after graduating college, I felt a lot of inspiration and connection to those around me, and it’s just, yeah, instilled a lot of hope and positivity. And yeah. So I think, also practicing gratitude and journaling has been something that has personally resonated with me a lot. So I think focusing on what you can do at the individual level, and also advocating for elected officials, and leaders, and CEOs that have the climate crisis as a priority agenda item on their docket, I think that would be a great starting point.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you mentioned so many great things. Starting with, just having conversations with those around you, because that helps you process your feelings, and then finding like-minded people who are sharing similar feelings, and joining communities of like-minded people, and focusing those feelings into action.
Maya Steinberg:
Mm-hmm.
Matt Schlegel:
And I love the way you say, “There’s no wrong answer.” It’s like, everybody needs to be doing everything. So, it’s like, whatever you’re passionate about, there’s something that you can be doing to address the climate crisis in that realm. So, it’s such grace advice.
Maya Steinberg:
Thank you. For better or for worse, the climate crisis is very expansive in terms of what it entails and what it covers from communities of concern, to different ecosystems, to impacts on the environment, to other social justice types of concerns. So I think I truly believe that there is something within the umbrella of climate change that every single person can resonate with. It’s just about finding what truly speaks to you and running with those feelings to try to make a difference.
Matt Schlegel:
Perfect. Yes. Well, thank you so much, Maya, for all the terrific work that you are doing and your leadership in this area. It’s so important. And thank you for sharing your feelings and joining me in the conversation today. I really appreciate it.
Maya Steinberg:
Thanks. It’s been a pleasure to chat with you.
Matt Schlegel:
Thank you. Thanks for listening. Maya shared so many great points. I love how she emphasized the importance of having conversations and building community. Also, as an Enneagram Type 9, who tend to minimize feelings of anger, she uses positive feelings like hope and optimism to maintain the energy and direction for her leadership. We definitely need more Enneagram Type 9s like Maya as climate leaders. If you found this helpful, please subscribe to the channel and click on the bell to get notifications of future episodes. Thanks again.
