Honored to be a guest on The UnNoticed Podcast with Jim James. We discuss the Enneagram and how it can be used as a marketing tool to help you get noticed. #getnoticed
Find the podcast here:
YouTube: https://youtu.be/GVTQWsckf0o
Podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/850540/10092076
You can find Jim James here:
Website: https://eastwestpr.com/
Twitter: @jimajames, @eastwestpr
Facebook: @eastwestprgroup
Instagram: @eastwestpr
LinkedIn: @Jim James, @EASTWEST Public Relations
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesjim/
[Transcript]
Jim James:
Hello, and welcome to this episode of The UnNoticed Entrepreneur Show. Today I’m delighted to have, joining me all the way from Palo Alto, Matt Schlegel.
Matt Schlegel:
Great to be here. Thank you so much, Jim.
Jim James:
Matt, now tell us about the Enneagram. You’ve got a book out recently, and you’re an expert on the Enneagram. For those of us that don’t understand what that is, what it is, first of all, and how it could be used for communication?
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. So once again, thank you for having me on. The Enneagram, it’s a very powerful tool that is most commonly understood as a personality dynamics tool. And it describes these nine distinct personal or personality dynamics, each with its own underlying motivations, each with its own underlying communication styles and needs. And so and this is how the Enneagram is commonly understood and used by many people. It’s wonderful. When I first learned the Enneagram, I discovered more about myself than I’d ever understood before. And once you start on that journey of, wow, okay, so this is what’s going on inside of me, and really understanding that, then you start to realize, oh, well not everybody is like me. And you start to see these nine distinct styles emerge from the people you know. Some are really obvious. Some are not so obvious. It takes a while to get there.
Matt Schlegel:
But it’s so powerful in terms of understanding your own style, understanding how your style works with other styles, and then getting to your second point about communication, understanding how each one of these styles, essentially they have, for lack of a better word, a filter. And knowing how to use words that get through the filter to the person you’re trying to communicate is very powerful. And if you just stay in your own style and you communicate the way that your style would communicate, guess what? That’s great for communicating with other people of your style.
Jim James:
Right.
Matt Schlegel:
And that’s why birds of a feather flock together. It’s like, we get each other.
Jim James:
So Matt, I can’t let you go on any further without explaining if I can test you on what are those personality types? Is that okay to ask you what are those?
Matt Schlegel:
Of course. And so there are nine distinct styles. And the really interesting thing about the Enneagram is they use numbers. So in the most generic way, it’s type one, type two all the way through type nine. Because there’s no one word that describes each one of those types, because we’re all very complex people. But there are words that are commonly associated with them so that type one would be the perfectionist, type two is the helper, type three is the achiever, type four is the romantic, type five is the observer, type six is the loyalist, type seven is the enthusiast, type eight is the boss, and type nine is the harmonizer or peacemaker. So those are some of the words that are commonly associated with each one of those types. But you can kind of start to get a flavor of what each one of these types is bringing to the party.
Jim James:
So interesting. And then the Enneagram, what was the foundation of that? Where did it start?
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah, so it’s an ancient system, with roots traceable back to a couple thousand years ago. It became popularized in the west, by a Russian named Gurdjieff. And so, he brought the system kind of into the conversation around the end of the last century. And then a psychologist named Oscar Ichazo really took that and started to develop personality dynamics profiles associated with the Enneagram that we now all commonly understand. And then it really flourished in the ’60s and the ’70s. And I am fascinated now. If you go onto, say, YouTube and type in Enneagram, the millennials have just really taken to this. And so there’s a lot of content out there.
Jim James:
Oh, how interesting. How interesting. And so, I had to confess. I hadn’t heard of Enneagram, probably more my ignorance than anybody else’s. So how can an entrepreneur take these Enneagram tests? But also, more importantly, what tools have you developed and are you talking about in your book to help entrepreneurs to use that to enhance their communication?
Matt Schlegel:
Right. Well, so there are tests that you can take. I have a complimentary test on my website. So you can take that. And usually what happens is, you’ll score highly on two or three types. And that’s kind of the starting point. Don’t put a lot of weight into which one you score highest on. Take the top two or three. Because the first time I took the test, I scored highest on eight. And it turns out that I wasn’t an eight, I was actually a six. That was my second highest scoring. But I was in an environment where I had to exhibit a lot of eight type behaviors. And so that’s why I was like, oh yeah, that’s me, that’s me, that’s me. So anyway, that would be the starting point.
Matt Schlegel:
So feel free to find that on my website. And you could take that. And then as a communication tool, the really important thing to understand is that each one of these styles has a distinct way of communicating and listening. And so when I’m doing business development for my consultancy, I kind of have an idea of the Enneagram types that are associated with different roles in a company. So like for instance, a CFO is likely going to be a type one. And so, when I’m going to meet with a CFO, I’ll start off with words that resonate with that perfectionist. We’re going to get you the information. We’re going to make sure it’s right. We’re going to calculate things down to minute detail.
Matt Schlegel:
So these are all the things that are going to appeal to a type one. And so you can frame your messaging. As an entrepreneur, if you know your audience, and you know generally the Enneagram style of your audience, you can tailor your messaging to really resonate with them. And so, that’s one very effective way to use the Enneagram as a communication tool.
Jim James:
Yeah. And that is fascinating. And it raises all sorts of questions about the posts and the kind of avatar that you have for your business. Doesn’t it?
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly. What Enneagram type are you exuding? And then who’s that going to attract? Enneagram can help you understand all that.
Jim James:
Well, and I guess that’s both for employees and for partners and for present and future, right?
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly. And business leaders, if you are growing a team of people. And this is why I think that the Enneagram is so effective for leaders, is because it allows you to really understand the underlying motivation of your teammates. And so that when you are working with your team, you can understand, okay, well, this person, they’re the type two. They really want to help. They need appreciation. So I’m going to put them into a role where they’re helping people and they’re getting appreciation. And in that role, they will love it and they will thrive. And so just tailoring the way you even structure your team can be helped greatly by an understanding of the Enneagram.
Jim James:
So Matt, tell us about your book then, because you’ve got some tools, haven’t you, that companies couldn’t use? So do you want to share with us how you guide people through this?
Matt Schlegel:
Right. Well, thank you. So we’ve been talking about the Enneagram as a personality system. I actually have an engineering background, so I love systems in general. And one of the things I noticed when I looked at the Enneagram, it’s a circle that’s surrounded by numbers, kind of looks like almost a clock. So I’m thinking, well, why is it a circle? And why is it numbers like a clock? And I did a little more research and I discovered that it’s also a system. And the order of the numbers represents the order of those dynamics that appear as you move around the circle. It essentially becomes a problem solving process.
Matt Schlegel:
So for instance, what’s the first step in problem solving? It’s Hey, there’s a problem. It shouldn’t be like that. It should be like this. Well, that is exactly the dynamic of type one, the perfectionist. Because the perfectionist is the first one to say, “Hey, it shouldn’t be like that. It should be like this.” And on around. And so, understanding that, I developed a problem solving, a team problem solving methodology that you can use with your teams. And it allows you to essentially accomplish amazing things with teams as you systematically work through that process.
Jim James:
Okay, Matt, and what is the book called? Just give it a shout.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah, it’s called Teamwork 9.0. And the nine is for the nine Enneagram types. And there’s a lot of books about the Enneagram out there. But I didn’t see a book about how to use it as this team problem solving process. So that’s why I wrote the book. There’s this whole other great use case for the Enneagram that I wanted to share with the world.
Jim James:
That’s nice, Matt. So presumably that’s available on Kindle and audio books and everything else, right?
Matt Schlegel:
Yep. We’re working on the audio book. But you can find the Kindle and the paperback book on Amazon now.
Jim James:
Wonderful. But Matt, this is a show about marketing and entrepreneurs can get noticed. So can you tell us, with your methodology, how do you think an entrepreneur could use that to solve a marketing problem?
Matt Schlegel:
Right? That’s such a great question. When you’re working through problem solving, step one is very clearly defining the problem and then creating your goals. It should be like this. So it’s the should and the shouldn’t. And in that step one, you create that vision for what you want to accomplish. And then you can use the rest of the steps. It’s like, step two is the helper. It’s like, who can help me? Who can help me realize this vision?
Matt Schlegel:
And this is where, as a six, I know I’m not the best marketer. I know that’s not my strength, but there’s many people with strengths in marketing, like you, Jim, who really understand that. And so I now seek help, guidance and direction from people who are great at marketing. And then I get their ideas. And then go to three, is test them out, figure out which ones are having the most positive energy. Figure out how to implement them and then you move around so that you create this marketing plan where you get all the way to implementation and then you test it. So that’s how I’m using it in my marketing, is just to make sure I’m hitting all of those points in problem solving as I move around.
Jim James:
I really like that because I often, especially in, say, PR or marketing, we end up thinking of it as a creative only problem, or maybe a budget problem. And yet you are making it so that you’re appealing to a much broader spectrum of personality types who would evaluate that problem more like the De Bono six hats where you take different views on the same problem.
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly. That’s another way of looking at it, is you get stuck in your own way of looking at things and your own perspective. And if you deliberately seek out guidance from the other Enneagram types in your world, then you will get all of these fresh perspectives that help you move around and solve your problem. So that’s a great point.
Jim James:
Yeah. I like that, Matt, in that there are sort of two dimensions out there. There is, you are solving your own marketing problem. But also, as we talked earlier, if you think about who your avatar, your ideal customer profile is, or member of staff, if you can identify what their Enneagram profile is, you can adjust your vocabulary accordingly or your images and so on, accordingly.
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly, exactly. Because each Enneagram type will respond more positively or negatively to an image. So if you know who that persona is that you’re trying to target to, you can really hone in on the messages.
Jim James:
Question. Do people change where they are on the wheel, either over buying life cycle, for example, or over a product introduction life cycle? So do they start off as a one, but maybe become a two, but once they’ve bought the product become a four? Do they change personality wise?
Matt Schlegel:
That’s a great question. And the way I answer that, because people often have this question. And there’s a couple of ways to answer it, but one is, are you right-handed or left-handed?
Jim James:
Personally, I’m right-handed.
Matt Schlegel:
Okay. Now, do you have a left hand?
Jim James:
Yep.
Matt Schlegel:
Do you use your left hand?
Jim James:
I do, indeed.
Matt Schlegel:
Right. So generally, we have a dominance of one of the Enneagram type. It doesn’t mean we don’t have the other types in us. It doesn’t mean we don’t have access to them when we need them. Because I’m right-hand, often use my right hand. But when I need to, when I’m typing, I’m using my left hand. So it’s there. So that’s one thing. And then the other thing that as people understand the Enneagram more, you’ll see in the diagram, there are these lines within the circle. And every Enneagram type is connected to two other types. And these represent how your behaviors change when either you’re in a relaxed, comfortable place or in a stressed place.
Jim James:
Oh that is very interesting.
Matt Schlegel:
Yes. So when you see somebody that you know, and then you see them start to behave in a different way. So let’s pick on the type one. When you know the type one is very concerned about getting it right all the time, but then they go on vacation and all of a sudden, all of that disappears, and all they want to do is just have fun and they just forget all that other stuff, and that’s their movement to type seven in that relaxed place. And then on the other hand, when they get overwhelmed, when all of these problems start building up, then you can see them move to type four, which is kind of this emotional, almost slightly depressed state. And so, you can see that the Enneagram represents those motions depending on where they are personally in their life.
Jim James:
And that has a massive impact from a marketing perspective because when we talk about customer journeys, not only in the buying process, but are they on the way to a holiday when they see the article, or are they reading it on the beach, is an entirely different place on the Enneagram than if they’re going to work and they’ve had a stressful weekend.
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly.
Jim James:
Yeah. That’s very interesting. So that has some impact as well then probably on SEO word selection too, doesn’t it?
Matt Schlegel:
That’s right. And where people will be. If you are trying to solve a problem for highly stressed people, then you want to know what’s going on for that when they’re in that stress state, and how to reach them even when they’re in their stress state. And it’s harder in the stress state because people tend to become a little more myopic in that. So you have to be even more targeted in your messaging.
Jim James:
Wow. Okay. That is really, really powerful. This is obviously a huge subject. I look forward to reading your book. But Matt, as an entrepreneur, and you’ve worked in Japan, which is fantastic, and now you’re back in the states. How are you getting noticed and getting your new book working out?
Matt Schlegel:
Well, for one, I’m doing my virtual book tour now. I launched the book in the middle of the pandemic. So it’s all been virtual. So I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience. So that’s one way that I’m doing. And I love it. I’m just meeting so many great people like yourself. And then I do a lot of writing. I like writing. I wrote a book. So I’m leaning into that, and writing blogs and articles. I have this tent pole strategy on my website where there are certain points that I’m trying to emphasize, like leadership and teamwork and decision making and Enneagram. And I write articles in each one of those areas that gets picked up by the search engines. And I just drive traffic to my website that way.
Matt Schlegel:
So yeah, a number of different techniques that I’m using and having a lot of fun with. And the thing I would give advice to anybody is, try a lot of things and then stick with the ones that you really like doing, because those are the ones you’ll keep doing. And if you can find that intersection of the things I like doing and the things that are effective, that’s where the magic is.
Jim James:
Matt, you’re absolutely right. Because actually, there are so many demands on our time otherwise, aren’t there? So many channels, unless you use an amplification tool like Hootsuite or Buffer to send in an automated way. But if you’re going to engage with an audience, then you really have to focus, don’t you? That’s absolutely great advice. Matt Schlegel, how can people find out about you?
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah, well, the best way would be to visit my website, which is evolutionaryteams.com. All one word, evolutionaryteams.com. And you can find out more about the book. You can see what I’m writing about. And feel free to contact me. You’ll find the test there as well. And if you take the test and you want to have a conversation, reach out, and I’d be happy to guide you through that.
Jim James:
Well, Matt. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. You’ve taught me a huge amount. So thank you so much for sharing all about the Enneagram, and all the implications that there are for understanding which of the nine profile types both we are, but also our respective audiences are. So thank you so much for sharing those insights today.
Matt Schlegel:
Thank you so much.
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