Julie Chendes, CEO of Next Level Strategies, became familiar with the Enneagram around 18 years ago and shares stories of how she used it to build effective teams at work. She discusses movement along the paths of integration and disintegration for Type 8. She shares how Type 8s and Type 2s work well together. And she gives great advice to Type 8 leaders using a rock and roll song reference!
[Video Transcript]
Matt Schlegel:
Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool, and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’m speaking with Julie Chendes, CEO of Next Level Strategies. Julie became familiar with the Enneagram about 18 years ago, and shares stories of how she’s used it to build effective teams at work. And now for the conversation.
Matt Schlegel:
I’m delighted to be speaking today with Julie Chendes. Julie is the owner, founder, and CEO of Next Level Strategies. An HR consulting firm specializing in serving small and medium-sized businesses with HR support like employee relations, recruiting, training, payroll, and compliance. Julie’s led Next Level Strategies for nearly 20 years now. And Julie is familiar with the Enneagram, and I’m eager to learn how she’s used this powerful tool, both with her team and her clients. Julie, thank you so much for being with me today.
Julie Chendes:
Thanks for having me, Matt.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah, it’s great to see you. I’m so eager to hear how you’ve used the Enneagram. But before we start, let me ask how and when did you first discover the Enneagram?
Julie Chendes:
It was about 18 years ago. I had just started the business and I was doing some networking. And in the course of my networking, I came across a guy who is an Enneagram coach. And through him, and just through being at the same kind of happy hours, I learned about the Enneagram through him, and it resonated with me, so I learned more.
Matt Schlegel:
Nice, nice. Yeah, it sounds like something I do, too. I’ll just start, “Hey, do you know the Enneagram?” It was just kind of an informal thing that got you kicked off on your journey.
Julie Chendes:
Yep.
Matt Schlegel:
Oh, that is great. And then as you started to use it, what did you discover about yourself that you didn’t know before, or appreciate before?
Julie Chendes:
Probably not just about myself, but one of the things I think that is so interesting about the Enneagram is, how a person’s personality evolves and devolves when things are going well or things aren’t going as well. And I really saw myself in that. Being an eight, when things are going my way as they are now, I’m the most generous person, the drinks are on me, very expansive, and sort of even got like a little bit of a hippy vibe.
Julie Chendes:
And when things sort of aren’t going well, even though I have a pretty outgoing personality, I can get very quiet and very kind of reclusive, and I like to be left alone with my thoughts. And I like to have minimal stimulation when too much is going… And it’s so typical of an eight. And I didn’t really realize all of that about myself until I found out more about the Enneagram.
Matt Schlegel:
Right, right. Yeah. So you’re talking about the movement from eight into two when you’re feeling secure, so the helper two, and then when things aren’t going your way, then you turn into that quiet five. And you’re just looking and observing, and trying to figure out how to get things back on track that.
Julie Chendes:
Yes. Yes.
Matt Schlegel:
Oh, that is great. So you could see that behavior in yourself. And this is one of the things that I personally love about the Enneagram, that differentiates it from some of the other systems is that, it really speaks to how our behaviors can change over time, you know?
Julie Chendes:
Yeah.
Matt Schlegel:
So you talked about that security and insecurity movement. And it also speaks to maturity and immaturity as well, right?
Julie Chendes:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Matt Schlegel:
As we get more mature, we start to move more along our path of integration. And most other systems are just like a static snapshot. And the Enneagram really shows how we’re not always the same, it’s not just steady, it’s, we’re constantly changing and evolving depending on our circumstances. So yeah, that’s very great observation.
Julie Chendes:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), exactly.
Matt Schlegel:
So now, how have you used the Enneagram with your team at your company? Or, have you used it with your team or with your clients? How have you used it?
Julie Chendes:
Not as much as I’d like, honestly. Back in the day, I had my right hand person who’s still with me, take the Enneagram, and lucky for us, no surprise, she’s a two. And so two and eight get along famously.
Matt Schlegel:
Yes.
Julie Chendes:
And as I look back, I think several of my kind of right hand people over the years have been twos. So even before I knew what I was attracted to, I was attracting really complimentary personality types to me. So I had her do it. And then we had another consultant at the time, and she refused to do it because she said she wanted to be mysterious. So it is what it is.
Julie Chendes:
And I used it in my personal life with my then fiance. We did a little coaching around the Enneagram and our types, and how to get along better. Because what would happen is, we got into an argument, all of a sudden I sort of shut down and I want to be left alone, and he couldn’t understand why I needed to be left alone in the middle of conflict. And so it was very helpful for both of us to understand each other more and the different types. But I haven’t used it as much at work as I’d like.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. And so a couple of things. It’s great how you identified how the eight and the two are really complementary. Actually, I talk about this in my book. I have a chapter on groupings that often work together. And one of them is the two, the eight and the five. And so it was so funny because when you said, oh, I want to be mysterious, the first thing that I thought of is, oh, probably a five. Which is exactly… It’s a perfect combination. Because really, you have one person from the instinctual, one from the feeling, and one from the head group. So you make a super complimentary team together.
Julie Chendes:
Good point. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah, that is awesome. Well, so now having used it and understanding yourself, what advice would you give to other leaders of your Enneagram type, type eight?
Julie Chendes:
Hmm. Well, I guess for me, and I think for all leaders. We can’t control everything in life, and we can’t control everything at work. And we certainly can’t control people. And so even though our happy place is sort of around control, I would advise all of the eights, but all leaders in general, to always make sure that you got yourself surrounded by people that you trust, that you can delegate to, that can… Are given the opportunity to exceed your expectations, and not swoop in, not try to control.
Julie Chendes:
What’s the old song by… Shoot, who is it, Kansas? No. “Hold on loosely, but don’t let it go. If you cling too tightly, you’re going to lose control,” right? So that would be my advice to the eights.
Matt Schlegel:
Oh, that is great. Right. Because your instincts are kind of telling you, this is what we need to do, and you want to kind of get in there and start to guide everybody in that direction. But sometimes you just need to back up a little bit, and let people do it their way. And yeah, that’s great advice, Julie.
Julie Chendes:
Or, make mistakes if they need to, or have their own opinion or whatever. Yeah.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah, yeah. Just let people show up the way they want to show up, and that ends up making a more powerful team, right?
Julie Chendes:
Yes, for sure.
Matt Schlegel:
If everybody is accepting each other’s style and way that they contribute. So yeah, that is great advice, Julie. Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories. And I think we probably have a lot more to talk about here, I have a whole bunch of more questions I want to ask, but we’re out of time. But I hope you can come back and we can continue the conversation another time.
Julie Chendes:
Yeah. Thanks Matt. Thanks for having me.
Matt Schlegel:
All right. Thank you.
Julie Chendes:
Interesting stuff.
Matt Schlegel:
Thanks so much for watching. Julie made some great points about how she used the Enneagram’s path of integration and disintegration, to really understand how her style changes depending on her stress and security levels.
Matt Schlegel:
And she gave examples of her movement towards type two in security and type five in insecurity. And then she shared that with her teammates, so that they understood also how her style might vary, and that just helped everybody understand each other.
Matt Schlegel:
She also identified how the type two and type eight form a highly effective team. I have seen this time and time again in the workplace. And I talk about it in chapter seven of my book, Teamwork 9.0, and this is one of the powerful combinations of teams. And then finally, I really loved how she pulled out the reference to the 38 Special song, Hold on Loosely. She makes such a great point that if type eights try to control too much, squeeze too tightly, they can actually lose control. And I thought that was a great example.
Matt Schlegel:
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