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The Enneagram and Whole Brain Living

March 15, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

In preparation for this week’s Enneagram workshop, I am re-reading Jill Bolte Taylor’s book, Whole Brain Living. You may recall Bolte Taylor’s famous 2008  Ted Talk (https://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_my_stroke_of_insight) in which she recalled her experience her brain processing differently during a stroke.  She experienced her perception change.  She experienced her personality change.  As a Harvard-trained brain scientist and researcher, she recognized which parts of her brain were losing dominance and which parts were becoming dominant.

In his book, Personality and the Brain, Peter Savich maps left- and right-thinking brain and left- and right-emotional brain to the nine points of the Enneagram.  As I read Bolte Taylor’s experiences,  I can’t help but appreciate how her descriptions match up to behaviors described by the Enneagram.

The hemorrhage occurred on the left side of her brain and shut down left-thinking and left-emotional brain function. She became purely right-thinking and right-emotional dominant.

As I read her descriptions, I glean that before the stroke she was left-thinking brain dominant with a strong right-emotional brain.  This maps to either Type 3 or Type 8. With all of her accomplishments, I can’t help but think she was likely a Type 3 before the stroke.

For instance, on page 29 she writes, “When I salvaged the functions of my left-brain thinking module, with them came the goal-driven, well-organized, methodical, controlling character who had dominated my pre-stroke life.” She seems to be describing Type 3 behaviors here.

On page 25 she says, “Remember that Blackberry? It used to make my right brain moan.”  Clearly she already had ready access to her right-emotional brain, which could also be Type 3 in Savich’s model.  Type 3s also have access to the left-emotional brain, so she would have recognized a loss of that function during the stroke event.

She goes on to write on page 29, “I will admit that I truly enjoyed not having any of the pain from my past in my left-brain emotional module anymore.”   Enneagram Type 3s suppress their emotions.  In the period after the stroke and before recovery, she was relieved from the work of suppressing emotions.  When her emotions came back, she was reminded of the work she needed to do to suppress them.

She enjoyed the experience of right-thinking brain dominance. Curiously, the path of integration for Type 3 is towards Type 6, which is right-thinking brain dominant. What Bolte Taylor describes here is an Enneagram Type 3 moving along the path of integration towards Type 6 behaviors and exercising those parts of the brain.

Finally, when I watched the Ted Talk, I was impressed by the emotionally delivery of her experience.  Enneagram Type 3s have difficulty expressing emotion.  Enneagram Type 3s working in academic settings dominated by the emotionless Enneagram Type 5 dynamic would have just that much more difficulty expressing emotions.  Having gone through the experience of being relieved of left-emotional brain function and knowing how to better access right-emotional brain function seems to have given Bolte Taylor the ability to genuinely access and convey emotions in front of an audience.  The operating word is “genuine.”

I am excited as we continue to learn more about the Enneagram-brain connection.

Filed Under: Brain and Enneagram, Enneagram

Enneagram Type 1 Leadership Path of Growth — Interview with Rochelle Seltzer

March 8, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Rochelle Seltzer is an author and coach who uses her intimate knowledge of the Enneagram to help her clients tap into their personal creativity to become their best possible selves and to live fulfilling lives.  You will really enjoy the insights Rochelle shares as a creative Enneagram Type 1 leader.

Find Rochelle here:  https://RochelleSeltzer.com

Check out Rochelle’s book here: https://thelivebigbook.com/

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’m speaking with Rochelle Seltzer, an author and coach who uses the Enneagram to help her clients tap into their own personal creativity to become their best possible selves. You’ll really enjoy the insights Rochelle shares as a creative Enneagram type one leader, and now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

I’m so excited to be speaking with author and coach, Rochelle Seltzer. After a successful career as a creative and a leader in visual branding and marketing, Rochelle focused her creative and intuitive energies towards building a program called Live Big Live with which she coaches women leaders to tap into their own creativity to envision and live life at their best, most fulfilled selves. Rochelle uses the Enneagram in her role as a leader and a coach, and I’m eager to hear both how her own Enneagram style influences her leadership and how she uses the Enneagram to impact the lives of her clients. So thank you so much for joining me today, Rochelle.

Rochelle Seltzer:

It’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. So why don’t we start off with how and when did you first discover the Enneagram?

Rochelle Seltzer:

So I was working with my first coach. I started working with him in 2009, and I think it was probably two years or a year and a half into that work with him that he started studying the Enneagram, and he wanted to help me identify my style and he was being guided by a teacher of his. And the irony is that I was mistyped by both of them for a couple of years in fact, so they thought that I was a seven. And I later came to realize in starting to work with somebody else who was a brilliant Enneagram expert and we didn’t really go into my Enneagram stuff for a while, and I made a statement to her one day and she said, “Let’s look back at your Enneagram style. I don’t think that you’re a seven.” And that’s when sort of landed on the truth that I was a one.

Rochelle Seltzer:

And I think what happened is that my coach saw me on the high side of my type, which showed up as a seven. He was not nearly as expert as he has become in working with the Enneagram at the time. And I didn’t really dive into learning that much about it. He had sent me a particular book, a well-known book that was so big and so over overwhelming to me that it wasn’t the right book for me and I hadn’t really done the reading and really exploration. But it was when I landed on my actual point of type one that I started really getting more interested, learning much more, and for me, excited enough about it to bring it into my coaching work, which was my second career, which came out of having sold the business that I ran for 27 years and making the change. And I realized that this is something I wanted to learn about and bringing to my work, which I started studying in 2015.

Matt Schlegel:

Okay. Yeah. Well, that’s fascinating in so many ways, right?

Rochelle Seltzer:

Yes.

Matt Schlegel:

Right? First of all, you were showing up in that type seven energy, which is the integration point for the one, so just living in that integrated state is remarkable even in itself. But obviously, it wasn’t completely resonating with you, and it wasn’t until you realized that your real starting point was type one where things, sounds like, it really started to click. It started to-

Rochelle Seltzer:

Oh, it totally opened my eyes.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Right. And I think it’s such a powerful story because there is a journey to you go through to really understand yourself and get to that starting point for you, and when you land there, it really opens up so much self-realization, which leads me to my next question. What did you discover about yourself that you didn’t appreciate before landing on that type one dynamic?

Rochelle Seltzer:

Well, I would say that everybody who identifies their Enneagram type sees the parts that they don’t like. It’s like, “Oh, I don’t want to be that way.” So of course what really showed up for me was how hard I was of myself, but also that I was pretty hard on other people sometimes, that judgment for myself and the judgment of others, and my children used to say, “Mom, you’re so picky.” And I don’t think I was judgmental of my children, but they could see how particular I was about things and what was a little sort of family joke was like, “Ooh.” That was based on where that motivation is in me to the standards that I had that were so impossibly high for myself and really expectations for others.

Rochelle Seltzer:

And I think that the voice of the self-critique is in all of us, but the flavor that ones have is really a particular voice, and I started to realize just how much it had ruled me for a long time and limited me the goal to get everything perfect was… I mean, my husband used to say, “You’re striving for perfection, you’re missing the good.” The process is not always the product and all sorts of things that I had heard about and thought about for years, but the clarity with which that was my particular lesson to learn became really, really, really clear. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Oh, yeah. That was beautiful. It’s so, I guess, relieving to know that, “Oh, that’s just the way I am and it’s part of who I am, and how I should be, and how I show up.” And then once you have that understanding, it’s like, “Oh, okay. Well, that’s me, and that’s not necessarily the way that everybody else is showing up and contributing, and maybe I am missing the good in pursuit of the perfection.”

Rochelle Seltzer:

I think that’s the gift to me is the sort of insight that, “Oh, here I go again,” and I can choose otherwise.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly.

Rochelle Seltzer:

And I’m not sort of a victim to this or I’m not so hardwired that I don’t have choices.

Matt Schlegel:

Right.

Rochelle Seltzer:

So it builds the self-awareness, and that has been a huge gift. Huge, huge. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Yeah. Just having that self-awareness just allows you now to better, I guess, control… But not even necessarily control, just understand what you’re doing and then choose to make other choices rather than just be guided by that inner voice all the time.

Rochelle Seltzer:

Right. And that’s, I think, the gift of the Enneagram for every point is that it really shows us our path, our path to a higher way and better way of living.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. Exactly. Well, now that you have all of this information both about yourself and the tool, how have you started to use the Enneagram in your role as a leader?

Rochelle Seltzer:

Well, I’m going to start with how I work with my clients as a coach because helping each of my clients to know their Agram style, and for some, it’s very easy and sort of falls right into place. And for some, not always so obvious at first. It’s a great tool for me. It helps me to coach them with so much more insight.

Rochelle Seltzer:

The thing I love the best is how much they get excited to have this insight, and it helps them because I help people step into all of their power and live their best lives, create their best lives. It helps them to do that with so much more insight and agency. I mean, I really don’t think I could work the way that I work as effectively as I work without the Enneagram. It’s incredibly valuable, and I love that my clients love it so much. Yeah, it’s a gift that I can give to them.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Right.

Rochelle Seltzer:

And then I think that as a leader, it helps me to appreciate, first of all, my gifts and share them more wholeheartedly than I might have before with less second guessing, right? Show up in just in a more effective way, a dynamic way, than I think I did years back when I was always concerned with what would others think of me instead of standing in my own authentic power. That concern with the judgment of others, letting go of that has been a huge asset to being a leader. Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know. I think it helps me to own what I have to share and not even judge myself on it, say, “This is what I’ve learned so far. This is what I know I can do now.” And I keep learning and growing, and not feeling like it has to be perfect or I have to know it all to be able to share my gifts. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Oh, that is great. Yeah. That’s so powerful just coming from that point of self-realization and then applying that to how you guide your path and your leadership, and I love how your clients are so engaged with the Enneagram as you take-

Rochelle Seltzer:

Oh, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

… them through that.

Rochelle Seltzer:

It never fails to happen.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. And it’s so fun, right? And you get to kind of relive that whole feeling again yourself of when you first discovered it.

Rochelle Seltzer:

It feels like such a gift that we can give to people. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Right. Well, yeah, that’s great. Boy, I have so many more questions for you, but let’s just wrap up with what advice would you give to other leaders of your Enneagram type, Enneagram type one?

Rochelle Seltzer:

Well, depending on where they are in their journey of self-discovery through this tool, I think that appreciating your gifts, appreciating the greatness that we all have. We all have our special form of genius and that we don’t have to be perfect. And that when we show up and we really generously and genuinely share what we have without fear of judgment, without the self-critique beating at us that it’s not good enough, when we can really let ourselves shine, I think that we give a gift to ourselves and to everybody that we’re leading, teaching, inspiring, whatever that moment is. When we can show up that way, it’s quite extraordinary and I would say to just own that greatness, own the great that you have, and don’t fall into the comparison trap, and don’t fall into the distraction of concern about others, and really just stand in your own power.

Matt Schlegel:

That is fantastic. Wow. I can just tell your enthusiasm both for working with Enneagram, but also the joy that you get in helping your clients on that journey and how powerful that must be. So thank you so much for sharing your stories. And like I said, I do have a lot more questions for you because I’d love to dive into the path of integration and disintegration for you as well at some point, and I hope we can make some time in the future and come back to that topic.

Rochelle Seltzer:

That would be great. That would really be fun.

Matt Schlegel:

All right. Well, thank you again, Rochelle. This has been such a delight.

Rochelle Seltzer:

Oh, it’s a pleasure. It was all mine. Matt, thank you for inviting me.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for watching. I appreciated Rochelle’s story about how she was mistyped when she first started working with the Enneagram, but once she landed on her dominant type, so my much self-realization occurred. She’s been able to use her self-awareness to have more control over how she shows up rather than simply being guided by her inner voice, and I also enjoyed hearing how her clients embrace working with the Enneagram and the enthusiasm enjoy that they get out of their journey of self-realization as they discover their own personal genius and greatness. The Enneagram is truly a gift that we can give ourselves and others.

Matt Schlegel:

If you like this, please click on the thumbs up and subscribe to the channel to get notifications of future episodes. And if you have any comments, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again.

Filed Under: Enneagram, Leadership

How to Construct Marketing Narratives with Enneagram Personas

March 1, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Marketing professionals construct narratives designed to catch the attention of specific personas.  The Enneagram describes nine personas, each with a distinct point of interest. The Enneagram also describes the sequence by which to construct a narrative to be most captivating to each persona.  This video explains how to construct a marketing narrative tuned for each Enneagram type.

[Transcript]

Today, I want to share an application of the Enneagram that I recently presented to a group that’s focused on marketing. And specifically, I wanted to show them how they could use the Enneagram to craft narratives that were targeted to each of the personas that are described by the Enneagram. Now, the Enneagram has these nine distinct dynamics, and each one of them represents a persona that you can hone language to that will resonate with that persona. And the Enneagram also describes sequences.

Now, the most obvious sequence is the sequence around the circle, one through nine. And you can see that, and that’s the most generic sequence, and you can craft a narrative using that sequence as well. I call that the problem-solving narrative, and I’ll briefly touch on that at the end. But what I really wanted to do was home in on a narrative that was targeted for each one of the types.

And for that, I used the lines that are inside of the Enneagram circle. And you can see that there are two sets of lines that describe sequences. One is described by that triangle, the red triangle, and those are the three, the six, and the nine. And then there is the sequence described by the blue lines. And you can start anywhere, but starting with one, it goes over to seven, then five, then eight, over to two, four, and then back to one. And for each one of these sequences, you can start at any point and then follow around. So let me give you an example.

So I crafted language for this particular talk. And I’ll read it to you. And then just imagine what Enneagram type you think I was targeting here. So, “You want to engage with clients in a fun way that makes them happy. Matt Schlegel presents a thoughtful approach that serves as a guide for action that will help you help your clients while making a positive, emotional impact. This principled approach allows you to realize your ultimate goal- make your clients happy.” So what Enneagram type do you think I was talking about there?

Now, I had some insider information on this organization. I have given the Enneagram assessment to over 100 members of this organization. So I have a very good understanding of the dynamics. And the two dynamics that really stand out are the seven dynamic and the three dynamic. So in this case, I decided to write the blurb targeted for a type seven dynamic. I also did a type three dynamic. So I’ll show you both examples.

But first, let me show you the seven. So for the seven, you want to start with that fun and positiveness. That is going to attract the attention of a type seven. And then as you move through the points described by the lines in the sequence, the next point is the five, which is the fives want to be informed. And so you bring in informative, thoughtful. The next point is eight, which they want to get to action. Two wants to be helpful. Four wants to have an emotional impact and be unique. One is principled. And seven, back to fun.

And so here’s what it looks like deconstructed. So you can see, “You want to engage with clients in a fun way that makes them happy.” So that’s that seven. “Matt Schlegel presents a thoughtful approach.” So that’s the five, “that serves as a guide to action,” which is the eight, “that will help you help your clients.” So that’s the two. And then, “while making a positive, emotional impact.” So that’s that four feeling coming through.

And then this principled approach allows you to realize your goals. So ones like principles and they like goals. And then back to seven, which is “that makes your clients happy.” So that’s how I constructed that blurb to target a type seven dynamic. So now, let’s look at the sequence described by the triangle. And this time, I did it with the type three in mind, because that’s the other dominant character or dynamic associated with this organization. And so this is the blurb I came up with.

“Win-win! Your client’s success is your success. Matt Schlegel shares a big idea for how you can consistently lead your clients to successful outcomes, using a considerate, attentive, high-touch approach- achieving success for both you and your clients.” All right. So did you feel three in that? So here’s what I was going for with three. So three wants success. And so you want to formulate this around winning and success. Threes are also idea people, so you want to include something around ideas. And then you follow through, the six, they want the predictable and the consistency. The nine wants the harmoniousness. And the three, back to success.

So here’s how the narrative is deconstructed. “Win-win! Your client’s success is your success. Matt Schlegel shares a big idea for how you can,” so that “win-win,” the “success,” and “the big idea” are all elements that are going to appeal to a type three. And then the six wants the predictableness and the consistency. So I say, “consistently lead your clients to successful outcomes.” And then the nine wants to have harmony. And so it’s, “considerate, attentive, high-touch approach.” And then back to success, “achieving success for both you and your clients.”

So you can see how would resonate with the three and then touch on each one of those elements in the narrative that make sense to the three. Now, let’s just briefly touch on the narrative structure for the general audience. If you don’t know the dynamic of the group that you’re going to be speaking to, or if you’re speaking to, say, an executive team that’s going to have multiple dynamics, or say, a board of directors, I find that the narrative described by the circle, the problem-solving narrative, is very powerful.

And so the way that that looks is, as I describe in my book, Teamwork 9.0, the Enneagram is also a problem solving process. So you can just go through the dynamics of each one of these Enneagram types, pull out that problem solving dynamic, and put it into the narrative. So step one is describe the problem and describe what the goals are. Step two is, who cares? So all of the stakeholders that are involved. Step three of the narrative is, what are the ideas that you considered? And then step four is, what feedback did you get? What was the emotional reaction to those ideas? And what were the ideas that had the most positive reaction?

Then, now you’re moving over into the head group, which starts with the five, and you want to validate. This is how you validated the idea to make sure that it’s going to work. This is the analysis that you did to validate it. And then once you have validated idea, then you want to show, this is the plan that you put together from point A to point B into the future to implement the idea. So that planning is that type six dynamic.

Now, when you are actually presenting this to your audience, that’s a very seven activity. You are promoting this proposal or plan that you’ve put together. So that is the seven dynamic. And you could say, “So I’m here to present this to you, and get your permission to move forward and implement the plan,” which is eight. “And then I will show you the results.” And that’s the nine.

And so that would be the narrative structure around the circle for the generic case. So these are a couple of ideas for how you can use Enneagram to create narratives that are tuned for specific audiences that are described by these Enneagram dynamics. Thanks so much for listening. If you like this, click on the thumbs up button, share it with others, and subscribe to the channel to get notifications of future episodes. Thanks again.

Filed Under: Enneagram, Marketing

The Ubuntu Lab CEO Mike Radke Shares the Source of His Leadership Passion

February 22, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

We have much to learn from leaders focused on social justice and climate justice.  Mike Radke, Executive Director of The Ubuntu Lab, shares the emotional source of his passion for the work he does and how that informs his leadership. The Ubuntu Lab team explores the human experience, connects people, and builds a more understanding, sustainable, and just future for all people. Mike brings his passion to his work at The Ubuntu Lab where he creates experiential tools that help people from all walks of life connect around their common humanity.

Find Mike here: https://www.theubuntulab.org/

and here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeradke/

#Leadership #Commitment #EmotionalIntelligence #EQ #climatechange  #socialjustice

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are engaging with their feelings as a leadership tool for both inspiration and motivation. Today, I’m speaking with Mike Radke, an extraordinary social justice leader who heads The Ubuntu Lab. Mike has long recognized and used his feelings as a motivator for his work. And now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

I’m delighted to be speaking with Mike Radke, executive director of The Ubuntu Lab. Mike’s passion is exploring the human experience, connecting with people and sharing what he finds with others in the hope of building a more understanding, sustainable and just future for all people. He brings his passion to his work at The Ubuntu Lab, where he creates experiential tools that help people from all walks of life connect around their common humanity. Thank you so much for joining me today, Mike, and welcome.

Mike Radke:

It’s a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Matt Schlegel:

Great. Well today, I really wanted to focus on how climate change is influencing your leadership. And so I wanted to just start by asking, how are you feeling about climate change right now?

Mike Radke:

I think for me, it’s really always that two sided coin of feeling the reality of a very critical situation that has huge ramifications for people across the globe and can be very scary at times. And on the other side, seeing the work of so many brilliant people around the world who are dedicating their lives and their best minds to tackling this really critical issue. And that gives me hope. It’s kind of that reality of the issue being very serious and also the hope of knowing that humanity finds a way and that we do have access to that humanity.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. Yeah. Couldn’t agree with you more on that. It is wonderful to see how humanity is rising up to address this challenge and ultimately solve it. How were those feelings that you’re having about climate influencing your behaviors as a leader and your direction in your leadership?

Mike Radke:

Well, I think confronting the reality is kind of for me as a leader and for the work that we do, it’s kind of again, two parts. One, the initial part is making sure that the decisions we make are good and sustainable and healthy for the environment. Wherever is logistically and practically feasible, we make our choices towards a pro environmental stance. And at the same time, making sure that the issues we’re tackling are connected to the environment. We are guided a lot by the sustainable development goals and those being a heavy part of those goals means that a lot of times no matter what we’re talking about, whether it’s identity or happiness or directly about climate change, we infuse that in the programming we do.

Matt Schlegel:

Oh, that’s interesting. Now, where are those goals coming from that you are relying on in that work?

Mike Radke:

The UN, the United nations SDGs. Those are the ones that drive a lot of the narrative and drive a lot of the funding landscape. And so it’s easiest to align around those and then blur the edges of them where it makes sense to tackle any particular issue. It’s we find a way to integrate that into our work, whether it is organizational, logistical or the bulk of what we do, which is programming and creating experiences.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. And the other aspect of this that I think that you are particularly suited to address is the intersectionality of climate with other justice movements. Including all of humanity. How does that play into your thinking and what you’re doing with The Ubuntu Labs?

Mike Radke:

Well, climate change it is a justice issue. It is disproportionately affecting those in vulnerable positions. It’s disproportionately affecting those who have been systemically marginalized for throughout human history. And so for us, it’s always been or it continues to be a discussion of how do we do both? How do we make sure that we’re addressing the people who are most in positions to make the biggest changes? Which tends to be Western, wealthy, the people in leadership positions currently, while also making sure that the people that are being affected by them, by the climate and by environmental issues around the specific contextual issues around the world, also get a new voice. Are heard more and are in a position to assume places of power so that they can step into those places, go into those positions, both in a just being seen sense but also in a having a powerful voice that’s listened to and being able to lead once they’re there.

Mike Radke:

Our programs kind of addressed both sides. And connect the two. To be quite honest, a lot of our work is in connecting, not saying, “This is for you and this is for you,” but saying, “What we’re doing is for everyone and how can we connect those conversations and bring people together?”

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Which is why I think the work that you’re doing is so important, just providing a platform for all of these voices to connect and understand each other. I’m grateful for the work that you’re doing. And so, just to wrap up, what I’d like to ask you is other leaders and aspiring leaders are now becoming increasingly aware of the climate crisis and are starting to have feelings about that. And what advice would you give to those leaders who are now having these feelings about climate?

Mike Radke:

I think it’s for me it’s about that idea of using that upset feeling, whether it’s fear or anger or outrage or sadness, as a motivator is something to drive me to action. And I think that’s the critical piece is it’s great to know things. It’s great to feel things but unless you’re doing things you’re really just standing still with the rest of kind of where we’ve been for the last 30, 40 years. And knowing that this is a problem and seeing that it’s not going to end well but standing still while we did it. I think it’s time for action. And whether that’s making our voices heard or doing things directly to influence a better future for all of us. I think that’s the advice I’ve got. Let it motivate you and then get to work.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And appreciate your response, your emotional response, whatever that is but then use that as energy to get to action. And while we’re on it, is there a for you, a particular feeling that’s motivating? Do you find yourself in any one particular emotional space over another?

Mike Radke:

I think I probably bounce back and forth between being upset about the injustice around the world, that’s kind of been my motivator from very young is seeing injustice and not feeling okay with it, being angry about it. And then being hopeful, knowing that we can change, seeing that we can change. In my lifetime, we’ve seen huge change, from even just addressing the hole in the ozone layer, whatever that was, 20 years ago to the end of apartheid and the end of the troubles in Ireland and the fall of the Berlin Wall. We’ve seen huge social change in short periods of time. And I’m very hopeful that we can do it again and that we are doing it.

Matt Schlegel:

That is a great place to leave it, Mike. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it.

Mike Radke:

You’re very welcome. I was glad to be here.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for watching. Mike’s work at The Ubuntu Lab is focused on social justice and climate justice is increasingly becoming central to social justice. These injustices cause Mike to feel upset and these feelings have long been a motivator for him and his work. Mike illustrates the importance of recognizing your feelings and using those feelings to inform your leadership. And while he says that he often cycles through many feelings about climate, fear, outrage, sadness, he uses all of that emotional energy to passionately pursue his goals for creating a just and equitable world for all people. He says, “Now is the time for action.”

Matt Schlegel:

If you found this conversation helpful, please click on the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel for notifications of future episodes. And if you have any questions, please leave them in the comments section and I’ll get to them as soon as I can. Thanks again.

Filed Under: Climate Crisis, Leadership

The UnNoticed Podcast host Jim James interviews Matt Schlegel on how to use the Enneagram as a Marketing Tool to Get Noticed

February 22, 2022 by Matt Schlegel Leave a Comment

Honored to be a guest on The UnNoticed Podcast with Jim James.  We discuss the Enneagram and how it can be used as a marketing tool to help you get noticed. #getnoticed

Find the podcast here:

YouTube: https://youtu.be/GVTQWsckf0o

Podcast:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/850540/10092076

You can find Jim James here:

Website: https://eastwestpr.com/

Twitter: @jimajames, @eastwestpr

Facebook: @eastwestprgroup

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[Transcript]

Jim James:

Hello, and welcome to this episode of The UnNoticed Entrepreneur Show. Today I’m delighted to have, joining me all the way from Palo Alto, Matt Schlegel.

Matt Schlegel:

Great to be here. Thank you so much, Jim.

Jim James:

Matt, now tell us about the Enneagram. You’ve got a book out recently, and you’re an expert on the Enneagram. For those of us that don’t understand what that is, what it is, first of all, and how it could be used for communication?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. So once again, thank you for having me on. The Enneagram, it’s a very powerful tool that is most commonly understood as a personality dynamics tool. And it describes these nine distinct personal or personality dynamics, each with its own underlying motivations, each with its own underlying communication styles and needs. And so and this is how the Enneagram is commonly understood and used by many people. It’s wonderful. When I first learned the Enneagram, I discovered more about myself than I’d ever understood before. And once you start on that journey of, wow, okay, so this is what’s going on inside of me, and really understanding that, then you start to realize, oh, well not everybody is like me. And you start to see these nine distinct styles emerge from the people you know. Some are really obvious. Some are not so obvious. It takes a while to get there.

Matt Schlegel:

But it’s so powerful in terms of understanding your own style, understanding how your style works with other styles, and then getting to your second point about communication, understanding how each one of these styles, essentially they have, for lack of a better word, a filter. And knowing how to use words that get through the filter to the person you’re trying to communicate is very powerful. And if you just stay in your own style and you communicate the way that your style would communicate, guess what? That’s great for communicating with other people of your style.

Jim James:

Right.

Matt Schlegel:

And that’s why birds of a feather flock together. It’s like, we get each other.

Jim James:

So Matt, I can’t let you go on any further without explaining if I can test you on what are those personality types? Is that okay to ask you what are those?

Matt Schlegel:

Of course. And so there are nine distinct styles. And the really interesting thing about the Enneagram is they use numbers. So in the most generic way, it’s type one, type two all the way through type nine. Because there’s no one word that describes each one of those types, because we’re all very complex people. But there are words that are commonly associated with them so that type one would be the perfectionist, type two is the helper, type three is the achiever, type four is the romantic, type five is the observer, type six is the loyalist, type seven is the enthusiast, type eight is the boss, and type nine is the harmonizer or peacemaker. So those are some of the words that are commonly associated with each one of those types. But you can kind of start to get a flavor of what each one of these types is bringing to the party.

Jim James:

So interesting. And then the Enneagram, what was the foundation of that? Where did it start?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, so it’s an ancient system, with roots traceable back to a couple thousand years ago. It became popularized in the west, by a Russian named Gurdjieff. And so, he brought the system kind of into the conversation around the end of the last century. And then a psychologist named Oscar Ichazo really took that and started to develop personality dynamics profiles associated with the Enneagram that we now all commonly understand. And then it really flourished in the ’60s and the ’70s. And I am fascinated now. If you go onto, say, YouTube and type in Enneagram, the millennials have just really taken to this. And so there’s a lot of content out there.

Jim James:

Oh, how interesting. How interesting. And so, I had to confess. I hadn’t heard of Enneagram, probably more my ignorance than anybody else’s. So how can an entrepreneur take these Enneagram tests? But also, more importantly, what tools have you developed and are you talking about in your book to help entrepreneurs to use that to enhance their communication?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Well, so there are tests that you can take. I have a complimentary test on my website. So you can take that. And usually what happens is, you’ll score highly on two or three types. And that’s kind of the starting point. Don’t put a lot of weight into which one you score highest on. Take the top two or three. Because the first time I took the test, I scored highest on eight. And it turns out that I wasn’t an eight, I was actually a six. That was my second highest scoring. But I was in an environment where I had to exhibit a lot of eight type behaviors. And so that’s why I was like, oh yeah, that’s me, that’s me, that’s me. So anyway, that would be the starting point.

Matt Schlegel:

So feel free to find that on my website. And you could take that. And then as a communication tool, the really important thing to understand is that each one of these styles has a distinct way of communicating and listening. And so when I’m doing business development for my consultancy, I kind of have an idea of the Enneagram types that are associated with different roles in a company. So like for instance, a CFO is likely going to be a type one. And so, when I’m going to meet with a CFO, I’ll start off with words that resonate with that perfectionist. We’re going to get you the information. We’re going to make sure it’s right. We’re going to calculate things down to minute detail.

Matt Schlegel:

So these are all the things that are going to appeal to a type one. And so you can frame your messaging. As an entrepreneur, if you know your audience, and you know generally the Enneagram style of your audience, you can tailor your messaging to really resonate with them. And so, that’s one very effective way to use the Enneagram as a communication tool.

Jim James:

Yeah. And that is fascinating. And it raises all sorts of questions about the posts and the kind of avatar that you have for your business. Doesn’t it?

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. What Enneagram type are you exuding? And then who’s that going to attract? Enneagram can help you understand all that.

Jim James:

Well, and I guess that’s both for employees and for partners and for present and future, right?

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. And business leaders, if you are growing a team of people. And this is why I think that the Enneagram is so effective for leaders, is because it allows you to really understand the underlying motivation of your teammates. And so that when you are working with your team, you can understand, okay, well, this person, they’re the type two. They really want to help. They need appreciation. So I’m going to put them into a role where they’re helping people and they’re getting appreciation. And in that role, they will love it and they will thrive. And so just tailoring the way you even structure your team can be helped greatly by an understanding of the Enneagram.

Jim James:

So Matt, tell us about your book then, because you’ve got some tools, haven’t you, that companies couldn’t use? So do you want to share with us how you guide people through this?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Well, thank you. So we’ve been talking about the Enneagram as a personality system. I actually have an engineering background, so I love systems in general. And one of the things I noticed when I looked at the Enneagram, it’s a circle that’s surrounded by numbers, kind of looks like almost a clock. So I’m thinking, well, why is it a circle? And why is it numbers like a clock? And I did a little more research and I discovered that it’s also a system. And the order of the numbers represents the order of those dynamics that appear as you move around the circle. It essentially becomes a problem solving process.

Matt Schlegel:

So for instance, what’s the first step in problem solving? It’s Hey, there’s a problem. It shouldn’t be like that. It should be like this. Well, that is exactly the dynamic of type one, the perfectionist. Because the perfectionist is the first one to say, “Hey, it shouldn’t be like that. It should be like this.” And on around. And so, understanding that, I developed a problem solving, a team problem solving methodology that you can use with your teams. And it allows you to essentially accomplish amazing things with teams as you systematically work through that process.

Jim James:

Okay, Matt, and what is the book called? Just give it a shout.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, it’s called Teamwork 9.0. And the nine is for the nine Enneagram types. And there’s a lot of books about the Enneagram out there. But I didn’t see a book about how to use it as this team problem solving process. So that’s why I wrote the book. There’s this whole other great use case for the Enneagram that I wanted to share with the world.

Jim James:

That’s nice, Matt. So presumably that’s available on Kindle and audio books and everything else, right?

Matt Schlegel:

Yep. We’re working on the audio book. But you can find the Kindle and the paperback book on Amazon now.

Jim James:

Wonderful. But Matt, this is a show about marketing and entrepreneurs can get noticed. So can you tell us, with your methodology, how do you think an entrepreneur could use that to solve a marketing problem?

Matt Schlegel:

Right? That’s such a great question. When you’re working through problem solving, step one is very clearly defining the problem and then creating your goals. It should be like this. So it’s the should and the shouldn’t. And in that step one, you create that vision for what you want to accomplish. And then you can use the rest of the steps. It’s like, step two is the helper. It’s like, who can help me? Who can help me realize this vision?

Matt Schlegel:

And this is where, as a six, I know I’m not the best marketer. I know that’s not my strength, but there’s many people with strengths in marketing, like you, Jim, who really understand that. And so I now seek help, guidance and direction from people who are great at marketing. And then I get their ideas. And then go to three, is test them out, figure out which ones are having the most positive energy. Figure out how to implement them and then you move around so that you create this marketing plan where you get all the way to implementation and then you test it. So that’s how I’m using it in my marketing, is just to make sure I’m hitting all of those points in problem solving as I move around.

Jim James:

I really like that because I often, especially in, say, PR or marketing, we end up thinking of it as a creative only problem, or maybe a budget problem. And yet you are making it so that you’re appealing to a much broader spectrum of personality types who would evaluate that problem more like the De Bono six hats where you take different views on the same problem.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. That’s another way of looking at it, is you get stuck in your own way of looking at things and your own perspective. And if you deliberately seek out guidance from the other Enneagram types in your world, then you will get all of these fresh perspectives that help you move around and solve your problem. So that’s a great point.

Jim James:

Yeah. I like that, Matt, in that there are sort of two dimensions out there. There is, you are solving your own marketing problem. But also, as we talked earlier, if you think about who your avatar, your ideal customer profile is, or member of staff, if you can identify what their Enneagram profile is, you can adjust your vocabulary accordingly or your images and so on, accordingly.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly, exactly. Because each Enneagram type will respond more positively or negatively to an image. So if you know who that persona is that you’re trying to target to, you can really hone in on the messages.

Jim James:

Question. Do people change where they are on the wheel, either over buying life cycle, for example, or over a product introduction life cycle? So do they start off as a one, but maybe become a two, but once they’ve bought the product become a four? Do they change personality wise?

Matt Schlegel:

That’s a great question. And the way I answer that, because people often have this question. And there’s a couple of ways to answer it, but one is, are you right-handed or left-handed?

Jim James:

Personally, I’m right-handed.

Matt Schlegel:

Okay. Now, do you have a left hand?

Jim James:

Yep.

Matt Schlegel:

Do you use your left hand?

Jim James:

I do, indeed.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. So generally, we have a dominance of one of the Enneagram type. It doesn’t mean we don’t have the other types in us. It doesn’t mean we don’t have access to them when we need them. Because I’m right-hand, often use my right hand. But when I need to, when I’m typing, I’m using my left hand. So it’s there. So that’s one thing. And then the other thing that as people understand the Enneagram more, you’ll see in the diagram, there are these lines within the circle. And every Enneagram type is connected to two other types. And these represent how your behaviors change when either you’re in a relaxed, comfortable place or in a stressed place.

Jim James:

Oh that is very interesting.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. So when you see somebody that you know, and then you see them start to behave in a different way. So let’s pick on the type one. When you know the type one is very concerned about getting it right all the time, but then they go on vacation and all of a sudden, all of that disappears, and all they want to do is just have fun and they just forget all that other stuff, and that’s their movement to type seven in that relaxed place. And then on the other hand, when they get overwhelmed, when all of these problems start building up, then you can see them move to type four, which is kind of this emotional, almost slightly depressed state. And so, you can see that the Enneagram represents those motions depending on where they are personally in their life.

Jim James:

And that has a massive impact from a marketing perspective because when we talk about customer journeys, not only in the buying process, but are they on the way to a holiday when they see the article, or are they reading it on the beach, is an entirely different place on the Enneagram than if they’re going to work and they’ve had a stressful weekend.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly.

Jim James:

Yeah. That’s very interesting. So that has some impact as well then probably on SEO word selection too, doesn’t it?

Matt Schlegel:

That’s right. And where people will be. If you are trying to solve a problem for highly stressed people, then you want to know what’s going on for that when they’re in that stress state, and how to reach them even when they’re in their stress state. And it’s harder in the stress state because people tend to become a little more myopic in that. So you have to be even more targeted in your messaging.

Jim James:

Wow. Okay. That is really, really powerful. This is obviously a huge subject. I look forward to reading your book. But Matt, as an entrepreneur, and you’ve worked in Japan, which is fantastic, and now you’re back in the states. How are you getting noticed and getting your new book working out?

Matt Schlegel:

Well, for one, I’m doing my virtual book tour now. I launched the book in the middle of the pandemic. So it’s all been virtual. So I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience. So that’s one way that I’m doing. And I love it. I’m just meeting so many great people like yourself. And then I do a lot of writing. I like writing. I wrote a book. So I’m leaning into that, and writing blogs and articles. I have this tent pole strategy on my website where there are certain points that I’m trying to emphasize, like leadership and teamwork and decision making and Enneagram. And I write articles in each one of those areas that gets picked up by the search engines. And I just drive traffic to my website that way.

Matt Schlegel:

So yeah, a number of different techniques that I’m using and having a lot of fun with. And the thing I would give advice to anybody is, try a lot of things and then stick with the ones that you really like doing, because those are the ones you’ll keep doing. And if you can find that intersection of the things I like doing and the things that are effective, that’s where the magic is.

Jim James:

Matt, you’re absolutely right. Because actually, there are so many demands on our time otherwise, aren’t there? So many channels, unless you use an amplification tool like Hootsuite or Buffer to send in an automated way. But if you’re going to engage with an audience, then you really have to focus, don’t you? That’s absolutely great advice. Matt Schlegel, how can people find out about you?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, well, the best way would be to visit my website, which is evolutionaryteams.com. All one word, evolutionaryteams.com. And you can find out more about the book. You can see what I’m writing about. And feel free to contact me. You’ll find the test there as well. And if you take the test and you want to have a conversation, reach out, and I’d be happy to guide you through that.

Jim James:

Well, Matt. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. You’ve taught me a huge amount. So thank you so much for sharing all about the Enneagram, and all the implications that there are for understanding which of the nine profile types both we are, but also our respective audiences are. So thank you so much for sharing those insights today.

Matt Schlegel:

Thank you so much.

 

Filed Under: Enneagram, Podcast

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