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Enneagram and Feeling on the Grief Gratitude Podcast

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Delighted to be in conversation with Kendra Rinaldi, host of the Grief Gratitude Podcast.  On Episode #115, Kendra and I discuss the Enneagram and how different Enneagram types process feelings.

Grief Gratitude Podcast Episode #115: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/podcast/episode/8e9f5db2/115-using-enneagrams-to-understand-ouselves-and-others-with-matt-schlegel

Discover more episodes here: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/podcast

Learn about Kendra’s coaching services here: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/

Connect with Kendra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%F0%9F%8C%80kendra-rinaldi%F0%9F%8C%80-69186376/

[Podcast Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Each one of these types has a first reaction to a super stressful situation. And so for the gut people, it’s driven by anger. For the heart people, it’s driven by feelings and including sadness and grief. And then for the head people, it’s anxiety. So when people are going through a transition, depending on what their enneagram type is, they will probably start with one of those three.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes in transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief. I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I’m Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now let’s dive right in to today’s episode.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Welcome to today’s episode. We have Matt Schlegel on and we will be talking about his book, Teamwork 9.0 and talking about enneagrams and how we can use it to solve problems, including climate change. So that is a big one, that’s a big one. So welcome, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

So great to be with you here, Kendra. Thanks for having me.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Thank you. Thank you for being here. I’m so glad to have you on. And I was telling the assistant that reached out to tell me about your book regarding enneagrams. I’m like, “Oh yes. I’ve been looking into that.” And I had already had my children do to see which enneagram… Oh, okay, let’s get that one. Enneagram, enneagram, enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

Enneagram.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Enneagram, enneagram. Okay, I’ll just say it that way. Enneagram. What enneagram number my kids were just so that I could even know how to relate with them. I had made them do the test. I already had an idea which one they were and I was right on one child. I wasn’t right on the other, which was surprising. And then just recently I did it myself. Funny, I had done it for my kids, but I had not done for mine.

Matt Schlegel:

Are you going to tell us?

Kendra Rinaldi:

So I will tell you which one came up, number two. Yeah, I’m a two. I’m a two, that one came up. What about you? What number are you?

Matt Schlegel:

I’m a six.

Kendra Rinaldi:

You’re a six? So tell us, okay, my gosh we’re jumping already ahead. So what is number six? What is that one?

Matt Schlegel:

Oh, so sometimes we’re called the loyalist, sometimes we’re called like the bureaucrat, sometimes we’re called the questioner. We ask lots of questions. We like systems, we things to go in order predictably so that’s why we create these systems to try to make things happen in a predictable way.

Kendra Rinaldi:

And that’s exactly what you did. So tell us your background, because you’d wrote a book, but tell us what your background is and why it is that systems is definitely your niche.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. So yeah, I started out with a technical background engineering. I became an engineer and at some point my manager came to me and said, “Hey, Matt, I want you to be a manager.” And I said, “I don’t know how to manage people. I only know about managing electrons.” And he said, “Don’t worry, you’ll be fine.’ But now that you know I’m a six, you know I’m not fine. And so I started studying everything, studying, studying, studying, and then I came across all of these tools to help teams and people be more effective in working together. And one of those systems I came across was the enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

So my engineering brain likes to pull these systems apart and put them back together and see what works well and what doesn’t. And no matter how much I poked and prodded at enneagrams, it’s like, “Oh, this is amazing.” It’s like, it just keeps going and going and going and is so powerful and it’s so effective at predicting how things will work out, which appeals to a type six, obviously. So that’s why I just became fascinated with it. I ended up using it at work with my team, both as a personality system. And then I asked the question, why are the enneagram types numbers? Why aren’t they letters or colors or animals, or why numbers?

Kendra Rinaldi:

And why?

Matt Schlegel:

Well, it turns out that the numbers are there for a reason and it’s exact order in which humans solve problems. So there is a personality dynamic associated with each type and that dynamic is exactly the dynamic you need in problem solving for that step. So for instance, the type one is sometimes called the perfectionist and they’re the ones that say, “Hey, it shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this.’ Well, what’s the first step in problem solving, “Hey, there’s a problem. It shouldn’t be like that. It should be like this.” And on and around. So step two, for instance if you-

Kendra Rinaldi:

With the mind?

Matt Schlegel:

Relating to the step two, the step two is who cares? Who cares about the problem? If somebody thinks there’s a problem and nobody around them cares, then you’re probably not going to end up solving the problem. But if the one brings up, “Hey, there’s a problem.” And then a bunch of people around them say, “Yeah, you’re right. We care. There is a problem,” then guess what? The problem gets solved. You move to step three, let’s come up with some ideas. And step four, oh, let’s pick a good idea. And step five, let’s analyze the ideas. Step six, oh, let’s build a plan to get to the goal. Seven, let’s get everybody excited. Step eight, let’s stop talking and do it. And step nine, how did it work?

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s so perfect. Yeah. So then if nine people were to be in a team and each one was one number, then would that make that team be more effective if there was a one or two all the way through nine.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, exactly. It would be a perfectly balanced team. Now, the odds that you would get nine people, all one of each type together is almost astronomical that would happen. So most teams aren’t balanced like that, which is why I have a consulting practice.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. And I liked I just went to your link right now, which by the way I’ll make sure to link in the show notes so that people can go because you have a free assessment one, and yours was actually easier. I didn’t have time right before our call to fill it out and I had already done it in another website, but I felt the way you just checkmarked on these was easier than these other ones that go into these questions that it’s like from inaccurate to accurate kind of like, where are you? It’s a little more gray area when you’re answering. And you’re like, “Eh, am I like?” So those are a little more ambiguous sometimes in these other websites to answer. And I thought yours was really clear and concise because you just check mark which ones apply to you and then you kind of know in the number that you check mark the most, that probably that’s yours.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. And just one warning about enneagram assessments. In my experience, the one that I have up right now on my website is a good one but you have to also acknowledge that you’re coming to the test at a certain state in your life. Like for instance, when I first took the assessment years ago, I tested highest as an eight and six was the next highest. They were about the same, but eight was a little higher. And that’s because I was working in a situation surrounded by eights where eight behavior was expected and I was behaving like an eight and I was just filling the role that was expected of me. So when I checked off those things, I was like, “Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that.” And I wasn’t thinking about, is that really the way I would respond if I were just doing it on my own or am I doing it because that’s what’s expected me of my culture? And so just be aware that sometimes you may not score the highest on your actual core type.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. Now with that said, do you notice that the same can occur then in a family in which maybe you end up being more of a number because that’s what maybe is needed more in that role as a parent or something, that you end up kind of becoming more of a certain number in that dynamic as well?

Matt Schlegel:

I think that’s more true for adults than for children. If it’s children taking the test, they’re less in control and they’ve been less culturized into behaving in certain ways in certain situations. And so they tend to answer the questions more honestly. And so I’d say that’s more of a situation for an adult, like being a mother, there’s a lot of twoness in being a mother. And so if you’re a mother and you’re taking care of kids, you’re like, “Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that.”

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, I’m a two, I’m a two, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

You’re behaving like a two whether you’re a two or not as a mother.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s so true, that’s so true. Okay, so now let’s talk a little bit about your life. So where do you live? And then we already found out how it is you came about developing the system, but I wanted to learn more about you. So where do you live and a little bit about your family?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, so I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and I’m married for 31 years. I have three kids. The oldest is 28, living up in Seattle, next is down in San Diego and both are young women who are successfully out on their own and I’m very proud of them. And then I have a son who is still with us here in the home. He’s in college, he’s taking classes and he’s studying likely to be an engineer.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Like dad.

Matt Schlegel:

Following in his dad’s footsteps a little bit. And I’m very proud of him in the progress he’s making too. So, yeah, it’s great.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Excellent. Now, how did this enneagram, did you end up making everybody test when you found this out? How long ago did you find out about enneagrams and did you end up then having everyone in your family then take the test?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, so I’ve been working with the enneagram for over 20 years now. And we actually learned it through my wife’s church so the pastor at my wife’s church is really into the enneagram. And in fact, he now has a foundation that focuses on different elements of spirituality that aren’t necessarily religious. And one of those is the enneagram. And so he actually has invited me to become the director of enneagram studies for his foundation. So he’s my long time mentor on the enneagram and still we do monthly enneagram workshops together. So that’s a long way of saying I actually came into it after most of my family already knew it. And when I’m taking the test and then I’m testing eight and they’re looking at me like, “You’re not an eight,” you know what I’m saying? I’m like, “Oh, okay.”

Kendra Rinaldi:

And you’re like, okay so if you go with the flow, then wait, are eights more rigid or eights more…?

Matt Schlegel:

No, no. I mean, eight are probably less rigid. They’re the ones who like to be in control so they’re the boss or the asserter, that’s that style, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. But when you said “No, okay, I’m a six,” That’s why I said, oh, okay. Maybe you weren’t an eight if you’re like, “Okay, yeah, I’ll go with the six,” because maybe if you were an eight, you would’ve been like, no, no, I’m an eight. I know I am

Matt Schlegel:

That’s right. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. It’s like when they said you’re not an eight, it makes me think, which is exactly what a six does, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes, exactly. You’re like, “Oh wait. No, yeah, you’re right, I’m not.” Okay, so then you did that then in your personal life and then how is it that then you started then to implement? So when you were given this role at work to be a project manager, you’re like, “How am I going to manage people?” You come up with this system, this tool, how did you start implementing it then with your team?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Well, first of all like most people you come into the enneagram through that personality aspect of it. So that problem solving process, the one through nine came later. So I just started using it with my team and introduced them to it, got them to understand each other’s styles and types. And and it was really very effective at helping everybody understand each other’s perspective. And most importantly, it gives you a vocabulary. It gives you a vocabulary to talk about these different dynamics that are going on, right? When some conflict arises and you have the vocabulary of the enneagram, and you could say, “Well, you are one and you are a seven, and you know the ones have this objective, the sevens have this objective.” And you’re all trying to get to the same end point, but you have these different perspectives and that’s where this conflict is arising and so let’s talk about that.

Matt Schlegel:

And that’s one of the things I’m most grateful about for the system is that vocabulary and then allowing people to just open up that possibility that, “Oh, well, yeah, my perspective isn’t the only perspective and now that I understand they are one and I understand what’s important to them I can totally see why they’re doing that and, well, this is the common ground, so let’s do that.” Boom, done.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Then it helps. Now, how open are people in general to take the test, when you’re managing a team, are people really excited to find out what they are? Are people reluctant or do people see how beneficial this could be in that team or work environment? You know what I mean? Have you had all kinds of people, be like, “Nah, I don’t want to do that.”

Matt Schlegel:

All of the above. And it depends on the type. Some types, like you said earlier, eight, I am an eight. Yeah, okay, let’s go, right? I mean, eight is one, they don’t mind being an eight and they resonate with that eightness and it’s done. And certain type ones are also, they pretty easily self-identify. But then some of the other types have more trouble like take the nine, right? The nine is the master at understanding everybody’s perspective. That’s what they do, they’re always thinking of others, they’re always putting themselves into other people’s shoes. And so it’s really hard for them to, say, “Well then who am I?” And so when you’re talking to a nine, it’s like, “Well, maybe that is one of the aspects of being a nine is that you can do this.” Oh, okay, right? So each type, another one is fours, they’re able to put themselves in everybody’s emotional shoes. And so sometimes they have a little more trouble. Fives, they tend to be able to masterfully take on different roles and personas in the environment. So they feel like they can be anybody and to the point where like, “Okay, so which one am I?”

Kendra Rinaldi:

Which one am I? Because they’re a chameleon, uh-huh.

Matt Schlegel:

And the one that they are is the one that’s able to put themselves in everybody’s personas.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Right, right, right, right, right, right. So, yeah, so then it helps. Now in the work environment when you’ve done this, do you see that there’s numbers that work better together in general personality wise? What would you say is that? Is there a particular formula for that?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and I actually write about this in a chapter in my book called Work Team Triads. And I first noticed it just anecdotally, just seeing if you just throw people together and they kind of organically start to work together and then I would see which types are just naturally working together. And I found out that there are these three distinct groups that just naturally work together with almost no conflict at all. It’s just like, wow. And I call them work team triads, and I gave them names, but there is another author who called them the harmony triads.

Matt Schlegel:

And so they’re the one, the four and the seven; the two, the five and the eight; and the three, six and nine. And so those groups of three tend to like each other and work well together. And so that’s a really interesting facet that I’ve found of this. And each one of those teams brings a certain distinct dynamic, right? So if you have a one and a seven and the four together, they want to do new, innovative, fun stuff, right? So that’s your team for like exploring new possibilities. And then the two, five and the eight, what they want to do is like, “We want to get stuff done.”

Matt Schlegel:

And then so then those are the type of people who tend to migrate to more operations types of roles in companies where they’re just cranking out product or they’re running the place, right? And then the three, six, nine, that’s the group that kind of wants to look at everything and build a smooth operating structure for everything, right? And so they tend to put in place the organizations and the systems that just kind of make it all work together. And so those are kind of the three, and you’ll see companies go through that same phase too, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Well, that’s what I was just going to say, yeah, because you need the creatives to come up with the idea of what it is going to be to then hand off to the two, the fives and the eights to then implement it to then hand to the team that’s a three, six, nine to then be able to create the whole picture.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. So I call them the startup triad, the industrious triad and the systematizing triad.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is so cool. Okay, so those are triads. Now, are there numbers, let’s say that would work, I know you mainly do it for work environments but would there be then numbers that work together as teams in relationship wise too? Because these are tryouts, which ones would be like numbers that work well, just as binary?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. So so any combination of those harmony triads. So oftentimes you’ll see eights and twos pair up eights, twos and fives, any combination of those will pair up. One, fours and sevens, you see that all the time, ones and sevens marry each other all the time. The other one is three, six, nines. I see couples from that triad together all the time.

Matt Schlegel:

And then there’s one other pattern that I’ve seen, and this is a really interesting aspect of the enneagram, is that for any type, the hardest dynamic… So I’m a six and I’m kind of in my six dynamic and I have more or less access to the other dynamics, the other eight dynamics, but generally the hardest dynamic for any type to access is one type hire. Like for me, it’s the seven, right? And that is true almost all the time, all the way around.

Matt Schlegel:

So here’s what I see happen is that when women, because women make the choice usually in the relationship, right? So when women are looking for somebody to partner with, they see tin hat person who is one type, one number higher, someone who’s very complimentary to them. So I see this all the time and it does get a little bit gender related in this case, but that’s just the pattern I’ve observed is that the woman will often choose a man who is one number higher. And so that’s another pattern I see.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is interesting. Now I’m curious now because you’ve interviewed then a lot of people to be able to see all these patterns, you’ve been able to observe a lot of different people. Because with this podcast being a lot regarding grief, have you noticed in situations that are hard how each number deals with transitions differently, like a change in life? Could you talk a little bit about that and how would that apply in situations like that in their life?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, yes. Great question. And enneagram really can speak to this very well because there’s another set of triads in the enneagram. And these are called the centers, these are the main triads of the enneagram. It’s the eight, nine, one; the two, three four; and the five, six seven. And the best way I found to explain this is if you’ve seen the movie The Wizard of Oz and there’s Dorothy and she meets these three characters on her journey. She meets the lion who wants courage, meets the tin man who wants a heart and meets the scarecrow who wants a head. And those are exactly the same elements that are associated with these main triads. The eight, nine, one are the gut people. Th two, three, four are the heart people. And the five, six, seven are the head people.

Matt Schlegel:

And then each one of these types has a first reaction to a super stressful situation. And so for the gut people, it’s driven by anger. For the heart people, it’s driven by feelings and including sadness and grief. And then for the head people it’s anxiety. So when people are going through a transition, depending on what their enneagram type is, they will probably start with one of those three. Some people will go straight to grief, some people will go to anger and some people will go to anxiety and have panic attacks, right? So for instance, when I saw the title of your podcast, I knew immediately that you were in the two, three, four group, because you start off with grief and gratitude, which is exactly, the grief is the two, three, four, and the gratitude is the two. So if you had asked me just from the podcast title, I could have guessed two.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is so interesting. It’s interesting how much you can know about someone just by these choices. And then with knowing this then too, then in assimilating when other people are going through something hard, by knowing your enneagram and by knowing other people and your families’ enneagram, you can know where they’re at in that moment of their transition and why it is that maybe they’re leading more towards the anxiety component in that transition, rather than with the grief and the sadness or the other person maybe leading with anger. And it helps you understand and be more empathetic towards the way that each of us is dealing with it differently.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly, exactly, exactly. And no response is wrong, right? There is no wrong response. And we’re humans. And this is the one thing I love about the enneagram is because just once I understood I’m a six and being a six guy in America is kind of a tough thing, it’s not the normal accepted behavior for a guy. The kind of the prototypical guy model is the eight. And so as a six I’m having to kind of step out of my comfort zone and be more like what’s expected of me in my culture. And then if you’re not aware that you’re doing that intentionally, and you’re just like, “Oh, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I just do what comes to them naturally?” It can be a little self defeating, right?

Matt Schlegel:

But once you understand your enneagram type, and then you understand what is your gift, what is your superpower in problem solving? Because we all have a superpower in problem solving. We all have this superpower that we can contribute to helping everybody else out. And then once you know that, it’s like, oh I feel the way I am, because that’s exactly the right thing for me to feel and I just need to now know how to channel that into a healthy contribution to the group and not let it control me. I’m just using it to inform me.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s the right word.

Matt Schlegel:

I can now inform the group better about what is going on. Does that make sense?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes, absolutely. And I think that is so important because sometimes we’re so hard on ourselves in how it is we react to situations. We’re our biggest judge, right? And so by being understanding and having grace with ourselves and the way that we deal with certain situations and the way that we react based on our personality, it gives us also that capacity of having grace with others, if we have grace with ourselves as well.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes, right. And then, yeah, once you have that acceptance of yourself and “Oh, it’s okay for me to feel anxious. I’m supposed to feel anxious. It’s not a problem.” And then it’s like, “Oh, it’s okay for them to be angry, that’s exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. It’s okay for them to be sad, that’s exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. It’s all okay.” And then we can just like, what is that telling us? Why are they sad? What about what we’re doing is causing-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Bringing up those emotions.

Matt Schlegel:

Them to be sad and what can we do to help them overcome that?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. No, that is awesome. Now you mentioned before we started recording how then these enneagrams can also help us with climate change.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay, let’s go into that. How is it that understanding this can then lead us to solve these bigger world problems?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right, yeah. So you can look at the challenge of climate change as a problem, right? It’s a problem, right? And so step one in that problem solving process is identifying that, “Oh, there’s a problem.” And so then once you say, “Okay, there’s a problem,” then you go to step two, which is, do you care? And I would say right now collectively, and I live in America so I’ll just speak for America, in my impression is not enough people yet care, right? Once enough people care then action starts to happen, right? And so I think we’re in this process now of moving from realization of the problem and then moving into caring about the problem.

Matt Schlegel:

But there’s a big challenge with caring about climate change, which is different from other challenges in a big way. And that is that once you acknowledge that, “Oh, there’s a climate crisis and it’s caused by burning fossil fuels, that’s the root cause of this is burning fossil fuels.” Then you’re like, “If I acknowledge that problem, does that mean I have to stop burning fossil fuels? Does that mean I have to start thinking about how I’m using fossil fuels? When I’m showering, is that a gas heater out there heating up that water? When I get in my car, am I burning fossil fuels to get to work? I get on an airplane, am I burning fossil fuel kerosene as I’m flying across the country?”

Kendra Rinaldi:

As I’m using this plastic cup, did fossil fuel go into creating this? So many things.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. And so once you get to that point, in that process, I look at it as a grieving process and what’s the first step in grieving? Denial.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Realization. Well, oh, denial, yeah. If we go by the steps, yeah. Or that realization, yeah. Okay.

Matt Schlegel:

So it’s a lot easier for us to just deny the problem and deny there’s a problem and blithely go along on our lives and just ignore the problem.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Because if we accept it, then we have to take action, which is way more work.

Matt Schlegel:

But it’s more than that, it’s actually going through the grieving process. And you see it, right? Some people will get sad, so we have climate grief now, that’s a term, we have climate anxiety or eco anxiety, that’s a term. So you can see, and then you get people-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Anger.

Matt Schlegel:

Who go to just like we had, I think the mass shooting we had in Buffalo is a manifestation of somebody who’s reacting to climate with anger. And so we’re going to see these reactions to the climate crisis, anger, we’re going to see grief and we’re going to see anxiety. And we’re going to be just seeing more and more of it because the climate crisis isn’t going away and we’re all going to be impacted by it soon. And so I know this is kind of heavy stuff, but the enneagram does give us a model for how humanity will respond in our various ways. And then and the hopeful thing is as more and more of us actually overcome our denial then and our impact and work start to work through that grieving process, that’s going to get us to action. That is the thing that will get us to action.

Kendra Rinaldi:

And now in that action then, I was having this conversation right before in the other interview I was having. And it’s about like, sometimes we think these big things are happening war. Okay, what do I do about that?” Can I go and stop the actual, no. So there’s other smaller things we can do in our day-to-day to have a ripple effect in the big scheme. So in that action then that we can each take then for climate change and the impact each of us are making, what would you say, going back to enneagram, are there then some specific things then that in each enneagram group, enneagram group would then lead more towards doing?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, yeah. And that’s a great question. And what I tell people is once they do get to the point where they want to take action, the climate crisis is, there’s a term now called hyperobject. The hyperobject is the thing that touches everything, right? And there’s a parable about the elephant and the five blind men and you put five blind men into a room-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, each touching part of it, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and they’re all describing the problem in different ways, but the real problem is it’s the elephant in the room. And so when I talk to people who want to take action, I ask them, “Well, what are you passionate about? Are you passionate about recycling, or are you passionate about reducing single use plastic, or are you passionate about working with your local representative and getting them to do something?” Because we all need to do everything and so the best thing to do is the thing that you’re passionate about, because you’re bringing your whole heart and your whole self to it, and that will infect other people to want to join you because they’ll see your passion and they’ll want to join you in doing it. And so there’s no wrong answer in taking climate action. It’s an all of the above thing and just follow your heart and do what you can do while keeping in mind that the most important thing you can do is actually start to reduce the amount of fossil fuel you burn in your life.

Matt Schlegel:

And then be that example. So if you can bike instead of getting into the car, bike instead of getting into the car and show everybody, “Hey, I’m biking, I’m going to bike to the station instead of taking the car,” whatever, just start thinking about how you’re using. We’re electrifying our home and the last appliance that we had was the water heater, and we replaced our gas water heater with a heat pump water heater, and we turned off the gas to the house now there’s no gas flowing to the house and it’s great. And now the city is going to interview me and ask me about the experience and then they’re going to put up my testimonial and so I’m just going to like there are poeople that do it.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s the ripple effect right there, right?

Matt Schlegel:

And that’s what we want to do, yeah, yeah.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, yes. Just one little thing can make a difference. Now, and in the same aspect then back again to even just the teamwork, Teamwork 9.0, that’s teamwork right there in the big scope of things of life right there. And then in your work environment, then the same, when we know that what we’re doing has an impact in the organization we’re part of, in the family unit we’re, in the city we live in and so forth it does make a difference. When we realize our actions do affect another human being. So it all comes down also to that, that connectiveness of humanness, of each other.

Matt Schlegel:

It’s very scalable. From the smallest team, like you and your partner or you and your family, or I joined rock band last year.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, how cool? What do you play? Do you play or do you sing?

Matt Schlegel:

So I’m kind of the utility player. I’ve been doing vocals, bass and drums with this band. So yeah, but all of them have different enneagram styles so you see all those dynamics come into play in that situation too. But it’s everywhere, right? And then, “Oh, she’s a one, that’s why she’s bringing this up.” And okay, I understand that and let’s work with her to help her solve this thing that she thinks is wrong and let’s help her get it to being right.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Did you make them all in the band also take the test?

Matt Schlegel:

I haven’t said anything about the enneagram for that. This is all just going on in my mind.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, now they’re going to have to take it so that you guys even can just work more effectively. Yeah, that’d be interesting that in every single dynamic that we’re in if we were to take that. But if not, then, like you said, if we even have an understanding of what other people are in terms of personality is just how we relate to them that also shifts and just by even changing that dynamic and that interaction, it already has an effect on the team.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and this just came up the other day. One of the persons who’s a type one had made a comment and I thought how would I respond to that? And I’m like, so they’re in the intuitive group and I’m in the head group, and the comment they made really made no sense to me, to my rational brain. But whatever I would say would come from a place of like, “That doesn’t make sense. Can you explain that to me?” Whereas there’s another person in the band who is also in that intuitive group who’s a nine. And I know the nine will always say the nicest, softest thing and will understand the one way better than I do. So I just zipped my mouth and I just waited and sure enough, the nine spoke up and said the most perfect thing. So just having that knowledge and just being able to check myself and my reaction and just letting that naturally happen.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, how beautiful?

Matt Schlegel:

That was worth the price of a mission on learning the enneagram, just for that.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s beautiful, but that takes a lot of self control to do what you did of just like, “Okay, let me just wait because I know that I will not say the right thing to this number one but if I just wait a number nine will say the right thing in order to be out of the situation. That’s wonderful. Okay, so then how many years has it been that you’ve been using this then in the workspace? I know you said 20 years ago was when your wife first brought it. And honestly, it’s only been in the last year that I’ve heard about this for myself. I had not heard about this. But again, I’m not testing myself all the time to figure out what personality trait I am.

Matt Schlegel:

But the millennials are all over this.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. Oh, I’m hearing it so much now. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. And if you go on to YouTube and you Google enneagram, there is just some hilarious comments, videos about different enneagram types.

Kendra Rinaldi:

What they would do in the same situation? Yeah, like how they would have… It’s funny, it’s funny.

Matt Schlegel:

It’s so funny and it’s a great way to learn about the different styles.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah. So for you then when did you start implementing it then in your strategy?

Matt Schlegel:

It was shortly after I learned. I just started talking to people about it, it was a part of my learning process. Do you know this? Are you interested? And other people in my group would say, “Yeah, I’ll take the test, sure,” and they took it and so it was pretty much right away that I was able to start to use it in the work setting very informally at first. Yeah.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. And now let’s talk about your book. When did you launch it and how do people, how can people get ahold of it?

Matt Schlegel:

Oh yeah. So thank you for that. We launched it March 2020, right as we were going into pandemic world. And so, yeah, and it’s available on Amazon and definitely check it out and you can go to the website and take that assessment and that’s complimentary and just love to get your feedback on your thoughts on the book and how you’re using it. It’s always a delight to hear the different stories and different experiences people are having.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Now, who is this book for? Who is it for? Is it for someone that, like yourself, was a project manager that needed to figure out, is it for a parent? Is it for a teacher? Is it for somebody in the workspace? Who is the best person for this book?

Matt Schlegel:

So the answer is leaders of teams. So I was thinking of project and program managers, I had them in mind. And then I just had managers in general, who are managing a team and leaders in general, who are leading a team I wrote the book for them. It is just such a powerful tool for a leader to have that knowledge, even if their team doesn’t. I’m sharing examples of how I use it with my band, right? They don’t know the enneagram, but I know the enneagram. And as a leader I want everybody to work well together and I know when I can jump in and when I shouldn’t, and once other people can jump in and it’s the perfect thing, right? And so understanding, I mean, and I talk about, I have a chapter called shared leadership. It’s like when is it better for you to step back and let somebody else take that lead rather than just jumping in yourself? But it’s for it’s for leaders in general that I really have targeted the book.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Wonderful, wonderful. Now, is there anything I have not asked you that you would like to share or any final words for the listeners as they’re listening? Again, we’ve gotten a lot, we’ve gotten of how it is you can use it just for yourself, knowing your enneagram, how is that helpful for yourself? How is it helpful when you’re interacting with others in a work environment? How is it helpful in understanding that as you’re dealing with a transition or grief experience in your life, or a difficult time, and then how is it helpful when you’re leading also then teams? So what other things would you like to share with the listeners regarding how they can use this knowledge, this tool?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, and I just so appreciate this conversation and you asked all the right question, is so great to be able to share this. So you did such a good job of leading us through that, I don’t have anything else to add.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, well, I’m glad, I’m glad I was able to ask the right questions to get to that. So thank you, I learned so much about it. I learned so much about it. And again, the book is Teamwork 9.0 and author Matt Schlegel, who is with us today again. And thank you so much again for sharing your knowledge and on this topic and your own life experiences of how you’ve used this in your life so thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

Thank you, Kendra. It was a delight meeting with you today.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today’s episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode, and if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do. So also, if you or someone has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well. Please reach out to me and thanks once again for tuning into Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.

Charged with Feelings, Climate Leader David Ligouy on his Solar-Powered Bike Trek from Argentina to California

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Author and climate leader David Ligouy focuses on developing green energy solutions for developing countries. His book – Able to Be Human – is currently being translated into English. His organization is an NGO called Peace Movement based on the Resistance Movement in France.  His current project, #BankOnTheClimate, is devoted to producing very economical, light electric vehicles for people in developing countries, like solar powered electric bikes!   To raise awareness and funding for this effort, David has ridden a solar powered bike from Argentina to California, and he’s currently on his way up the west coast to Canada.

Subscribe and follow #BankOnTheClimate on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeruw6lJCHyCjyvSHUzZzcg

Website:  https://www.bankontheclimate.com/

#Leadership, #Commitment, #EmotionalIntelligence, #EQ, #climatechange

[Video Transcript]

 

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using their feelings as a leadership tool for both inspiration and motivation.

Matt Schlegel:

Today, I’m speaking with author and climate leader David Ligouy. David works to bring solutions to people in developing countries that will help meet the internationally recognized sustainable development goals. And now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

Today, I’m speaking with a remarkable climate leader and author David Ligouy, who focuses on developing green energy solutions for developing countries. His book, Able To Be Human, is currently being translated into English. His organization is an NGO called Peace Movement and his current project, Bank on the Climate, is devoted to producing very economical light electric vehicles, for instance, solar-powered electric bikes. To raise awareness of this effort, David has ridden a prototype solar-powered bike from Argentina to California, and he’s currently on his way up the West coast to Canada. I am so eager to hear about what is inspiring him and motivating him on his journey. David, thank you so much for joining me today. Welcome.

David Ligouy:

Thank you very much, Matt. So, my inspiration come from science. I met a world scientist about EPCC, is a panel of climate change, is from Vietnam, and is an expert of integrate risk. So he did studies on integrate risk. So when you isolate a problem, you don’t see, okay, this maybe 20, 30 years. But he say, “Okay.” He said to me, “If we want to have a chance to save a lot of people, we are by 2020.” And I met him in 2015. So he says.

David Ligouy:

So I start to be conscious that we don’t have a lot of time. I prepare myself to the improbable. So in case it happens, maybe we all get together. We have, it’s for me an enormous hope that we can fix climate change, but also other solution my NGO Peace Movement, French Peace Movement is originally from the resistance, the resistance movement.

David Ligouy:

And in the resistance movement in 1941, Germany was as a Nazi was all over Europe for maybe four decades for… So, and the German army was the best in army in the world. So the Nazi was the best army in the world. So it was almost impossible to defeat them, improbable. But in two days, the Japanese decide to bomb Pearl Harbor and the USA enter in the war with us. So, and then USA has enormous potential. Okay. And the second one is the Nazi were defeated in studying God by the Russian. So in two days it changed completely the perspective of French resistance, that maybe there is a chance.

David Ligouy:

So, my NGO is focusing on social solution, economical solution, and also on environmental.

Matt Schlegel:

You said that your inspiration came out of science, but how did that make you feel? What are you feeling now?

David Ligouy:

I first feel overwhelmed by the situation. And also when I’m getting older, I have a lot of frustration because I think I didn’t do much. I did a lot, actually. We do. We Matt too. You did a lot. But we didn’t manage to, for the moment, we still didn’t manage to fix the situation. So it’s very frustrating sometime I have a lot of anger and I am overwhelmed by my anger. So, and also it’s a new field. That mean I was diagnosed with eco-anxiety one year ago and I’ve been suffering for 20 years. So, and…

Matt Schlegel:

So you were actually diagnosed with eco-anxiety, but you realize you’ve been feeling it for 20 years?

David Ligouy:

Yes, I didn’t… And then, so now I know what is my problem before. So, and I really like the book of this professor of Stanford.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. Dr. Britt Wray Generation Dread. Yes.

David Ligouy:

Wow. So she’s very courageous because she’s attacking this main problem.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

David Ligouy:

That I didn’t even know last year I was sick of it. I have all the feeling.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

David Ligouy:

All the bad feelings. You name it, I have it. All of them in a short time and a big amount of them. So it’s very hard to cope, but it’s preferable that I, and you Matt, are dealing with it than teenagers or children because they are not ready to face it. They don’t have the structure. If I have big problem to face it, I imagine the children. And so one of them is also denial. Me, I should be the guy who should know most the problem because I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it, but sometimes I don’t want to see it because it’s too much.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

David Ligouy:

So I have, my brain should do some denial to protect myself.

Matt Schlegel:

Many people are starting to have very strong feelings. But the easiest thing to do is to just be in denial. It’s a self-defense mechanism. And once you get past denial, it essentially uncorks all these other feelings that will come out, frustration, anger, grief, anxiety, all of these things are being bottled up now. And once you get past denial, they’re going to come out. And I think more and more people as they come to grips with climate reality, they will be starting to feel these feelings, which… So I guess what I want to ask you next is now that you are feeling all these feelings, how do you channel them into constructive positive action?

David Ligouy:

I have to know what is my… What’s called resilience. You have to look for resilience. Resilience, it’s a mechanical term. That’s if you hit somebody, if you hit a metal, it becomes stronger.

Matt Schlegel:

Mm.

David Ligouy:

So it’s a natural property of steel. If you hit it with hammer, it make it become every time stronger. So, but there’s a limit. So me, I have to find my resilience factors and everybody’s different.

Matt Schlegel:

Right?

David Ligouy:

So my… And then I do, because when you are overwhelmed by all these feelings, it’s not possible.

Matt Schlegel:

Right?

David Ligouy:

So you have to prepare it a little bit before that to get ready. So what I do first for me is swimming. So when I travel with my bike, I try to go to near the coast to be always near the Pacific coast or Atlantic coast. That’s what I do. Caribbean. So I know if I am too much overwhelmed by situation, I go to the sea. The sea calm me down.

David Ligouy:

And second one is, I do, what I do is biking. Because biking is generating sport. It’s generating also like swimming on the veins or calm my body and calm down my brain. And then, and biking, it’s helping me also with nature because I have to look the nature. I have to, not to look to my problem like this. I have to open to look left and right. It’s very basic. But to do that, look left and right, nature. “Oh, there’s a bird here. Oh, there’s a car here.” It just calm me down because I stop concentrating on my problems, on my fears. I look around. So that’s the second one. And the third one is dancing.

David Ligouy:

So in Latinos, they have been suffering for 500 years. So they are very resilient. They are not from a consuming society where they can have everything, because they don’t have money. So they found some ways to be resilient. So it’s dancing and singing. So they are poor, but they are allowed to dance. Don’t need too much to dance. So the third for me is dancing. I’m looking, I take some time to dance. And maybe a fourth, it’s maybe also very important is my bike, because bike will provide curiosity, provide…

David Ligouy:

So that’s one that was part of the project. That mean if you stress people, they’re already very stressed. Two third of the young people on the planet are stressed by the problem. And they are not in denial, because they don’t have this mechanism so elaborate. Adult are more in denial because they are too busy or obviously, cause they have way to be in denial. Young, especially young children, are not in denial. They are quite straightforward. They see the reality and they speak the reality and they are afraid. They are really afraid. They’re in panic.

David Ligouy:

So what I do with my bike, I bring curiosity, creativity, and joy. So, “Wow. What is this?” And then, and I provoke the meeting and I have a lower bike that also provoked humility, because I’m lower than people. That was part of the plan. So what I’m promoting is women is emancipation through transportation, who is the biggest… So also I’m tackling the problem. Action, so this, if I do action, if I’m just worry about my feeling, it doesn’t help. I have to act.

Matt Schlegel:

What advice would you give to them?

David Ligouy:

It’s everything is interactive. So I have to work on myself and I have to work with others. I have to also believe that it’s possible to do it on the world level. I have to work with the institution. Has to be a complete change.

David Ligouy:

So, and we have to do it fast. So it’s like a disruptive change in everything. So my advice is really based on the SDG. People should know first, what is SDG? And SDG, they have 169 target. So young people, especially, they should know that because it is going to help them to have an overview of the solution. This whole thing is interconnected. And after they have to feel in their heart, what is the most important for them? Because like in your book, everybody’s different. So you can work on one target, on of the 169 target and say… And maybe sometime you can even change in time, but you can constantly say, now I am more concerned about this target for could be gender equity could be integrated in education. It can be write a book or it can be okay… Or maybe sometime maybe you just too overwhelmed, just take care of yourself first. You can be taking care of others and this will take care of yourself.

Matt Schlegel:

Whenever you are going to start to have feelings about something it’s about a problem. That’s usually what is the starting point of having feelings is whether it’s your head or your heart or your gut is telling you that something isn’t right. There’s a problem. And…

David Ligouy:

It’s never face problem of humanity. Nobody have faced such a problem before.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. And you bring up the very good point of study the problem, really take the time to understand what the problem is. Don’t just assume, you know it, don’t just assume that your gut is right or your heart is right or your head is right. Actually take the time to understand the problem and then let that really good understanding of the problem inform your head or your heart or your gut, what to do next. I think that’s what I heard you say. And everybody is different. Everybody will bring a different strength or a different focus and we need it all. We need everything.

David Ligouy:

That’s biodiversity.

Matt Schlegel:

That’s right. Exactly. And if we’re all on the same page in terms of what the problem is, as we all contribute, we will all be working towards solving the same problem.

David Ligouy:

Yeah. It’s a patchwork of solution.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

David Ligouy:

It’s like a puzzle of solution and it will all come together.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

David Ligouy:

And it’s already planned by the SDG. So, okay. Okay. It’s going to work. You’re going to work on mental health of people because that’s your knowledge.

Matt Schlegel:

Well, David, thank you so much for all of your insights and sharing your feelings and for all of the work that you are doing and your focus, it’s really truly an inspiration for me. And I just appreciate you so much and what you’re doing, and I wish you the very best on your continued journey. And you know, much success to you as we solve our collective problem. Bank on the climate

David Ligouy:

Hashtag bank on the climate.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. And I will put a link to bank on the climate in the notes here. And you said that you have a YouTube explanation. So I’ll also put that in the notes for people so that they have a way to follow you and stay in touch with you.

David Ligouy:

Thanks so much, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

Okay. Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for watching. David shared so many fantastic insights for leaders who are facing a big problem and are starting to have strong feelings about that problem. He highlights the importance of taking care of yourself so that you don’t become overwhelmed. He emphasized the role that community plays in problem solving. And he says that you never know from when or where a tipping point will occur. So you have to prepare and be ready to take advantage of it when it does.

Matt Schlegel:

If you found this conversation helpful, please click on the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel to get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

How is Gen Z responding to stress in the Roaring 2020s workplace?

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Gen Z is entering the workforce at an extraordinarily stressful time. Authors Twiana Armstrong, Kimberly Layne and myself discuss what we are seeing, how Gen Z is responding, and what leaders can do.

Kimberly Layne: https://www.kimberly-layne.com/

Twiana Armstrong: https://linkedin.com/in/twianaarmstrong

#Roaring20s #Roaring2020s #MentalHealth #GenZ

[Video Transcript]

[Twiana Armstrong]

Recently read an article posted in 1999 that read, “Not that the older generation, hasn’t always heaped hopes and fears on the rising one, expecting it both to carry on what adults value and avoid their mistakes.”  As we reflect on our hopes and fears, we now witness five generations co-existing in the workplace: traditionalists, baby boomers, generation x, millennials, and generation z. Overlay this context with generational differences impacted by societal, political and community ills; all of which highlight differences between behaviors and outlooks. This generational diversity emphasizes that there is no one size fits all approach to leading and managing workers, especially our younger generations, the gen xers, millennials and the gen zers. Growing up, their worlds have been shaped by extremely significant events, oftentimes violent and chaotic, that subsequently influence their daily motivations. Leaders who do their homework have identified the keys to adapt, to communicate, to accommodate and prioritize for these generational variations.  Be bold in your efforts to invest in psychological empowerment and psychological flexibility, both of which promote mindfulness and positive mental health and quality of life, allowing for employee self-care.

[Kimberly Layne|

As parents, as teachers, as leaders, if we really stop and look, I mean really stop and look, …How do we see our younger generations faring, not just physically, but mentally?

Disruption is no longer temporary, but our “new normal.” The pandemic is in its third year, and we are also facing geopolitical conflicts, extreme climate events, sexual abuse, and inequality

For many adults, we have past memories, …happier and more positive memories that keep us keeping on, but, for our younger generations their lives have been a slew of unpredictable traumatic events:

Plane attacks, school Shootings, lock downs, terrible isolation, and disconnection. These constant unpredictable events, …hit the human core and are a terrorizing threat to their internal safety.

No wonder we see increased ADHD, depression, suicide, and violence against each other There is an absence of control, understanding and a helplessness on how to fix the problem.

Our youth are fighting to gain control

They press their employers to tackle climate change and find halfhearted responses that have minimal reach.

They have inspired organizations to address workplace mental health, yet they themselves suffer mentally, and are fearful to ask for help or take advantage of resources.

How can you as a leader meet these generations where they are?

Insightful David Rock, co-founder and CEO of the Neuro Leadership Institute, states

. “When the outside world is really uncertain, we all need more purpose and control in our day-to-day.” Getting our younger generations intrinsically tied to their work and meaning of the work they are doing is one way to give them back control.

Another way to give back control is to develop higher emotional skills. Such as Empathy, vulnerability, and an emotional understanding of ourselves and our struggling youth.

Your emotional strength as a leader provides a controlled environment for emotional safety and security.

Our younger generations are crying out; we as leaders need to be able to empathetically read, understand, and motivate them through this erupting landscape and keep them keeping on in a healthy mental state.

[Matt Schlegel]

Thanks, Kimberly.

Yes,  Gen Z is entering the workforce during a very fraught time.

This is the first generation fully raised on Social Media.

This is a Generation that grew up with the multiple threats of school shootings, pandemic, and climate change.

They’ve learned that the adults in their lives ostensibly there to protect them are resoundingly failing to do so.

They have no allusions that their employers will behave any differently than other adults in older generations.

One way that Gen Z is responding is by putting their social media skills to use and organizing to create worker-led movements. Famously, there’s a wave of Starbucks workers forming unions.  As of today, over 150 stores in 25 states voted in favor of unionizing and hundreds of stores across the country are awaiting union votes.

Workers at other high profile companies are also unionizing: Amazon, Apple , REI and Trader Joe’s just to name a few.

Younger generations find that building community in the workplace is an effective way to address the mental wellness issues of our age. I am expecting to see this trend continue.

Cynically, some employers have responded by co-opting the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion movement to bust union organizing efforts. In his recent article in the Intercept,  Lee Fang also points out that employers are discontinuing using terms like “human capital” which speaks to the commodification of people at the company.

While these rebranding efforts may work on older generations, Gen Z sees these as the union-busting efforts they are, which further enrages and activates them.  They’re seeking actual material benefits, not just words.

A Gen Z version of Jerry MacGuire might say: Show me the Diversity, the Equity, the Inclusion, and the Money!

Thanks.

Climate One Podcast Host Greg Dalton Shares How His Feelings on the Climate Crisis are Evolving

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Greg Dalton, host and producer of the Climate One podcast, has been creating the podcast for nearly 15 years and is increasingly helping us connect our feelings with the climate crisis. He says he’s “dropping conversations from the head down into the heart.”

Climate One is truly a must-listen for everyone, especially now that climate change has become a central issue for society at all levels—local, national and global. It is an outstanding source of information on topics that most commercial media studiously avoid.  I appreciate Greg’s approach, the breadth of topics and guests, and how he centers human emotions in our response to the climate crisis.

Greg advises people who are having feelings about the climate crisis and wanting to do something to focus on their own social circles. Don’t try to “save the planet.” Rather, look to what you can do in your immediate environment—your home, your community, your workplace. You have more influence there, you’ll have more impact, and you’ll just feel better about the progress you can make. He says if we all do this, it will create a virtuous cycle—a social contagion—and more of us will want to act, will act, and that will encourage others to take action as well.

Find Greg Dalton here:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-dalton-a6b24/

The Climate Mobilization: https://www.climateone.org/watch-and-listen/podcasts

#Leadership #Commitment #EmotionalIntelligence #EQ #climatechange

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   How are you feeling about climate change, and how are those feelings influencing your actions? Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are engaging with their feelings as a leadership tool for both inspiration and motivation. I’m very excited to be speaking with Greg Dalton, host of the Climate One podcast. Greg shares how the climate crisis moves him through many different emotional spaces, and how those feelings are motivating his work. Now for the conversation. Today I’m speaking with Greg Dalton, producer and host of the Climate One podcast.

He’s been creating this podcast for over 15 years now, and I’ve been learning from Greg and his guests for most of that time. His podcast is truly a must listen for everyone, especially now that climate change has become a central issue for society at all levels, local, national and global. Greg’s podcast is an outstanding source of information on topics that most commercial media studiously avoid. I appreciate Greg’s approach, the breadth of topics and the guests, and he too centers human emotions in our response to the climate crisis. Thank you for joining me today, Greg, and welcome.

Greg Dalton:                       Thank you, Matt. It’s great to be here with you.

Matt Schlegel:                   Great. Why don’t we just start off? I’d like to ask you how you are feeling now about the climate crisis.

Greg Dalton:                       Big question, right? As many of your guests say, it’s a roller coaster. I remember asking a scientist once how he feels about climate. He said, “I’m schizophrenic. I’m some days up and down.” This week, for example, I participated or watched a online session with Joanna Macy, where there was nearly 2,000 people and people crying and sharing their climate grief at what we’ve created and guilt about their complicity, and that was really heavy and really made me really sad, really down.

Then today I read about a new solar farm in Houston that’s coming online, Mayor Turner there, and they turned a former landfill into a solar farm. Wow, good things are happening. Depending on what I’m feeling, what I’m seeing, my latest conversations I have with people, it’s up and down. It’s a beautiful day here in San Francisco. I’m healthy. I got a good night’s sleep. Okay. I also try to manage my news intake. I try not to stay … I try to not spend too much time on climate Twitter, which can be a sinkhole and a depressing, and sometimes an uplifting place.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. Yeah. Couple things. One, Twitter is a really great resource for climate information. I find that, at least on the social media platforms, it’s one of the better ones and it has a lot of the climate scientists that are posting there. But you’re right, it can be quite heavy, and so you need to be careful how much you manage that. Then the other thing that you mentioned was that the situation you were in, where you actually experienced other people crying, and it almost feels like we’re going through a grieving cycle, where you’re moving through these different feelings and emotions as we’re coming to grips with the loss that we’re dealing with, and that is the grieving process. Is that how you reckon with it as well?

Greg Dalton:                       Well, I remember a few years ago, there was a psychologist or a psychiatrist, Lise Van Susteren, and I think she coined this term, pre-traumatic stress. There’s often time your people are stressed about trauma in the past in their life, and I think this first came around scientists having trauma about things that they predicted would happen, stress before the event happens rather than stress after the event happens.

I certainly have related to that because those of us working in climate are aware for a long time until 2017 or so, the first fires that they came into urban areas in Northern California. A lot of climate impacts, for me personally and other people in California, were in the future. But the wildfires in the American West have really brought it home and directly into our bodies, into our lives, and that’s when the stress has gone from the future to now. I’ve certainly gone along that path and felt anxiety about future trauma, and try not to get too far out there.

There’s this real dichotomy, right? The reason we’re in this predicament is we haven’t thought enough about the future. We’ve been very consumed today, and at the same time, trying to get centered and be present today and not get too caught up in what sometimes called future tripping, running away. Oh my gosh, way out there in the future. You can spend so much time ruminating about this terrible future that you’re not really here now. I’ve given myself permission. For example, we had a very pretty dry, sunny winter in the Bay Area, and sometimes I’d say like, “Oh, this is bad. Look, it should be raining. Oh, do I talk to people about that?” If someone says, “Oh, isn’t this weather great?” Do I say, “Well, it should be raining in February. It shouldn’t be sunny?”

Do I down, become a downer, or do I zip it and say, “Yes, I guess it is. It’s scary and it’s beautiful?” It can be both at the same time. Right? Beauty can be dangerous. Yes, it’s nice to be sunny in the winter, and it’s also scary because it should be raining and we don’t have enough water. How to hold those contradictions and acknowledge the beauty and the fear at the same time, that’s part of what I wrestle with, navigating this is where we are.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. I think that’s so beautifully said, and I think that’s pretty much all of us now are going to have to hold both of those things at the same time, appreciating what we’re losing while still being present and enjoying what we still have. Yeah, I think you said that very well. Thank you.

Greg Dalton:                       There can be joy and beauty even in dangerous times. [inaudible 00:06:58] people, humanity [inaudible 00:06:59] I think of often of the Cajun Navy. Whenever there’s a flooding disaster in Louisiana or somewhere, there’s people who go out and help others, and you see tremendous acts of heroism. It gives me chills thinking about these people dragging elderly women out of their homes and putting them in their boat and taking them away, because there’s not enough people, first responders, to …

The Cajun Navy, I think of as, there can be great heroism and humanity in times of suffering. We want to reduce those times of suffering, we want to work on it, and good things can still happen. We have to be careful about not just being all down, it’s bad, duh, duh. There can be to find beauty, acknowledge it and perhaps even … and value it and hold it even more dearly.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. Yeah. Really humanity at its best and behaving at its best, right? That’s really what we hope to do, is as we’re going through these feelings, is respond in a constructive, positive way, channel those into constructive positive actions. That leads me to my next question for you. How are those feelings influencing your behaviors and your direction as a leader in the climate space?

Greg Dalton:                       Well, I clearly ask more personal questions, now, of people. I’ve pledged to ask people about power and privilege after George Floyd. Ask powerful guests, “How have you reflected on your power and privilege?” Also, a lot of climate conversation and professional people, it’s a very cerebral intellectual place that we have that conversation, and I’ve dropped it more from the head down into the heart to ask even personal questions of people that I don’t know and people who often don’t share personal things that much.

I go there, I think, respectfully and delicately, and give some space for them to say, “Yeah, it’s really tough.” How do you work on this all day? What kind of resilience do you build? What kind of practice do you have? What kind of self-care do you practice? Et cetera. Because I think we’ve learned, in talking about climate for decades, that facts are important. In fact, on this Joanna Macy convening the other day, they said, “We’re here to talk about feelings, not facts.”

Facts are important and they’re limited. They’re necessary and insufficient, and so we need to have a feeling level and emotional level, a human level conversation because that’s what advertisers try to do, is create love for shampoo or whatever, right? They want you to love your shampoo or people love certain companies. That’s what a lot of advertising is trying to reach people on an emotional aspirational level. Why should wouldn’t we do that when talking about climate? Why should it be just facts and energy and kilowatt-hours and parts per million and et cetera?

We have to have that human level conversation, I think that’s more meaningful, it’s more real, it’s powerful. It’s more memorable. The cognitive scientists will say, “You might forget a fact, you remember a feeling.” There’s lots of reasons why I think it’s needed and warranted and useful to get to that level with people, even if it’s a little uncomfortable for them.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Thank you for really starting to focus on the emotional side of it. Most of the information comes out of the scientific community, and scientists by nature often don’t prioritize emotions, and certainly the academic environment does not promote emotions. A lot of scientists, if they do display emotions, it’s somewhat discrediting for them. They have to keep a dispassionate tone just in order to maintain credibility in spite of the fact that they might be feeling like getting up on top of the rooftop and shouting as loud as they can, “This is an emergency.”

Greg Dalton:                       Yeah. Think about that. That’s reason and facts that prevail. Well, we’re not, well, as behavioral economists have shown. We’re not rational creatures that we were taught in college, the classical rational economic man optimizing personal utility. That’s not the way humans are, and behavioral economists have won Nobel Prizes pointing that out.

The idea that we should separate emotions from facts, et cetera, I think that’s part of what’s gotten us to this place actually, is that disassociation, that connection. Scientists, you’re right, they report the facts, not to be emotional. That’s dismissive, that’s feminine. They don’t want be that.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Exactly. Yeah. Well, what advice would you give to people who are now starting to have those feelings, and specifically, how would you suggest they act on those feelings? This is for people who want to act, want to take some kind of leadership role. They may be in a leadership role now, or they’re aspiring to be a leader. What advice would you give for them?

Greg Dalton:                       Yeah. I had a conversation with a couple of college students recently who looked at me and said, “What do we do?” I said, “Well, the first thing is get rid of this you have to save the world or save the planet.” I think that that layer of, and that phrase even, is damaging and is burdensome, and the idea that … Because if you measure that, any individual action is not going to save the world. Just let’s get over that right now.

I interview very powerful people who are running large corporations, running the US Navy, they all feel inadequate to this, right? How’s a regular person’s supposed to feel? First is get rid of that save the planet, does it matter in the grand scheme of things. Just put away with that. The hubris of that, think about it, and think about … I said to them, “Well, you can’t save the world or the planet, but you can shape your world. You can shape the world around you. Your relationships, your community, your employer, your club, your family.”

It’s the old think globally act locally thing, and think about what relationships you have and start there and make an impact. Because I think there, you’ll be able to see some tangible impacts that will keep you going, because if you try to decarbonize California or the United States, good luck with that. But we have to … We need everybody moving in directions.

I just come to this much more decentralized, look around where you are, your town council, your school board, your employer, inside your company, et cetera, and focus there because I think that’s going to be more sustainable, more measurable. You’ll get more feedback for your ability to celebrate your small wins that you achieve along the way. If we all focus on Congress, we’re all going to be depressed and not get it anywhere. Right?

I think there’s a lot of misplaced. Congress is important and a lot of time and effort has been spent over the last decades from Waxman-Markey, now to Build Back Better, it hasn’t delivered for us. A lot of local great things are happening. As I mentioned, the solar farm in Houston. Cities decarbonizing, et cetera. This global issue, I think it’s got us focused globally and I think we need to focus a little more closer to home with ourselves inward, the inward journey and what’s around us.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. That is such great advice. We have so much more influence in our immediate circles than we do over the president of the United States, right? We can start to decarbonize our lifestyles and then help our friends and family decarbonize theirs, and then help our community decarbonize theirs, right?

Greg Dalton:                       Yeah. Right.

Matt Schlegel:                   It’s measurable and you get the feedback just like you said, and you can make an impact. If everybody started doing that, imagine what we could accomplish and-

Greg Dalton:                       There’s a social contagion, right?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Greg Dalton:                       People see solar panels, they see electric cars. There’s a real spreading effect, and that leads to movements, and that does trickle up. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Exactly. Because politicians aren’t leaders, really. They’re followers. They’re following their constituents, what their constituents want. If we all start decarbonizing our lives, the politicians will follow and say, “Hey, you know what? We should start to decarbonize everything.” Great. Yeah, that is such great advice. Thank you so much, Greg, and thank you for all of the work and contributions you’ve been making to this space.

I am so appreciative of everything you’re doing and your journey. I feel like just listening to you. I’ve been riding along with you on this journey. It’s just such a delight to speak with you, and thank you so much for everything and thanks for being on the show today.

Greg Dalton:                       That’s been a pleasure, and thanks for what you’re doing and it takes all of us. I really appreciate in this conversation, Matt. Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thank you. Thanks for watching. Having listened to Greg on the Climate One podcast over the years, I’ve noticed how his tone has changed. As he puts it, he’s dropped his conversations from the head down into the heart. I love how Greg is teaching us to connect our feelings with the climate crisis. Also, he says that people who are having feelings and wanting to do something, should focus on their own social circles. Don’t try to save the planet. Rather, look to what you can do in your immediate environment, your home, your community, your workplace.

You have more influence there, you’ll have more impact there, you’ll be able to see the progress that you’re making. He says, if we all do that, it creates a virtuous cycle, a social contagion, and as more of us want to act, we will act and that will cause and encourage others to do so as well. If you found this conversation helpful, please click on the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel to get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

 

Enneagram Type 7 Mariyah Jahangiri Shares How Feelings Inform Her Leadership

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Enneagram Type 7 leaders are challenged when having to deal with negative situations and emotions.  Mariyah Jahangiri is a Type 7 leader who works with teams in trauma-informed spaces.  She has learned that to be effective in her leadership role, she must make space for conversations about feelings. She says, “society doesn’t curate a safe environment for emotions and feelings.”  Mariyah has overcome both her own Type 7 instincts and society’s emotional avoidance to tap into feelings that she uses to bond the team and motivate them to get to action and get things done.

Mariyah is Network Organizer for Climate Mobilization, an organization that provides policy toolkits and trainings to catalyze nationwide climate justice campaigns fighting for zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 and for a livable future for everyone. She also works with the Asian Pacific Environmental Network to build a presence in the Los Angeles area. This organization supports outreach to low-income Asian immigrant communities adversely impacted by fossil fuel operations.

Mariyah works to strike the right balance between engaging with emotions in her community while keeping focused on goals and taking action to meet those goals. We have a lot to learn from Mariyah and her insightful leadership.

 

Find Mariyah Jahangiri here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariyah-jahangiri-2313ba156/

The Climate Mobilization: https://www.theclimatemobilization.org/

 

#Leadership #Commitment #EmotionalIntelligence #EQ #climatechange

 

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for her personal growth and development. Joining me today is Mariyah Jahangiri, a community organizer focused on issues related to the climate crisis. She’s an Enneagram Type Seven and shares how she uses the engram as a tool for self-awareness. And now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

Today, I’m speaking with Mariyah Jahangiri, network organizer for Climate Mobilization, an organization that provides policy toolkits and trainings to catalyze nationwide climate justice campaigns, fighting for zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 and for a livable future for everyone. She’s also working with the Asian Pacific Environmental Network to build a presence in the Los Angeles Area. This organization supports outreach to low income Asian immigrant communities adversely impacted by fossil fuel operations. Mariyah, thank you so much for joining me today and thank you for all the terrific work you’re doing.

Mariyah Jahangiri:

Yeah, thank you for having me, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

Great. Well, thank you. So let’s start off and I’d just like to check in with you, how are you feeling now about climate change?

Mariyah Jahangiri:

Yeah, I think my feelings around climate change can be very much tied to my relationship to my feelings generally. Just like anyone else, I think like the world, society doesn’t create necessarily safe environment for emotions and feelings and everyone [inaudible 00:01:40] different degrees with their lived experience has relationship to like trauma and emotions. And so like for me personally growing up in a kind of not so safe environment I was kind of used to turning off my emotions generally, and so I kind of pin that as kind of an origin of being on the autism spectrum. Where my relationship to my emotions is a little bit detached and I’m not really sure exactly what my emotions are. And I’ve honestly always used that to my advantage, to lean into my Enneagram seven kind of vibe of like always being able to look on the positive side, being very scared of negative emotions and that kind of barrier to emotions has helped me like be detached in spaces, especially like organizing where there’s a lot of trauma informed work happening.

Mariyah Jahangiri:

So it’s definitely helped in terms of deescalating triggers and just like working in a space like climate organizing, which is so heavy and yeah, it’s just really sad. And so I feel like it’s been really helpful, my kind of detached to my emotions, my ability to kind of put away negative emotions. But I’m definitely recently working to challenge that because I’m realizing just like people say the Enneagram Seven that your healing can only happen if you kind of work through what’s actually real in front of you. I definitely feel that way about climate too, it’s very sad reality that we’re living in, but it’s worth processing and being aware of, and also being aware of how it affects everyone else, mental health too.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Right.

Mariyah Jahangiri:

Yeah. As I’m kind of working through my own relationship to my emotions I feel like my emotional relationship to climate organizing is also evolving, and even though it’s becoming challenging in some ways there’s a lot more awareness of just the sadness that exists. There’s also a level of healing that happens when you’re more connected to your emotions. And so being in spaces where people care about the same issues as me, are very politically aligned, and even if it’s not structurally possible in the way that we want and create like small openings of like community and social justice and care for each other, it’s definitely been also very healing to be part of those communities too.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Wow. That so beautifully said. It has always occurred to me that having more Enneagram Type Sevens in the climate movement would be so helpful because you bring an energy that just brings people together and networks and that’s exactly what you’re doing. But Type Sevens also tend to shun negative emotions. And the climate movement is inherently fraught with a lot of processing negative emotions. I think it pushes a lot of Sevens away in general, unfortunately because we need more of them. And yet your gift is that have this ability to compartmentalize and still engage with everyone as that Type Seven and bringing that Type Seven energy without letting those negative emotions turn you away from what we need to do. So you are the perfect person for this, thank you. You have found your perfect role in the world.

Mariyah Jahangiri:

Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

So, tell me those feelings that you are having now, how are they informing your behaviors and your direction as a leader?

Mariyah Jahangiri:

Yeah. Well kind of, I guess, following up to what you were saying as in terms of that Type Seven leadership. I think also not just like being kind of averse to processing negative emotions, but also being very problem solve-y in a very quick way is definitely one skill that I think I have, which I bring to my leadership. I think that’s really helped me be a leader. Like for example, as a network organizer constantly just being able to problem solve and be very quick on my feet. So I think that has helped, but I think it’s also been, I think, a pitfall also, if that is kind of expecting others to be on the same rate of putting aside their emotions to do work. I think in my earlier organizing as a leader, I don’t think I was as effective because I wasn’t able to see past that as much and kind of was expecting people to be on the same da, da, da, like get it done, problem solve. Let’s just move along constantly and also not making as much space for emotions, honestly, in my organizing and not really understanding why other people wanted to.

Mariyah Jahangiri:

That was kind of a few years ago, since I’ve been organizing for like six years now. So now recently I think the most kind of healing spaces that I’ve been in have been once that recognize the importance of healing in organizing spaces. And so I’m definitely trying to bring more of that into my leadership. And just like any spaces that I’m facilitating, be more aware of the feeling that others are having, make space for that and connect those feelings to why people are drawn to organizing. Because I honestly think like the core of why people organize is a desire to be in community and desire to heal. And so if you can tap into that, then I think you can be like really [inaudible 00:08:06]-

Matt Schlegel:

Right. And all of that is really feeling based, right? So, that is some great advice and it’s just remarkable your journey of self discovery. And self-awareness brought you to that point of recognizing how important feelings play. It’s like the glue that brings us all together around a common cause. Yeah, that’s great. That is great. You found that as you engage with people’s emotions, they do tend to engage with more enthusiasm, is that what you’re finding?

Mariyah Jahangiri:

I think so. I think there’s a balance that I’m trying to kind of tread around engaging people’s emotions, but then also like moving along processes. Just given that the critical decade of organizing that we’re in, at the same time they’re working on a slow timeline, we’re also working on a very intense timeline. So I think that’s the biggest thing around if we do slow down, I think sometimes I find myself kind of questioning like the slowing down itself and like how much to slow down. Especially in leadership, how much do you facilitate that. Especially with my own relationship with emotions and being a seven and trying to move past that, how much do I lean into each of those sides? Or how much do I like say no, like let’s put this processing aside and let’s do some other work. Right, right. So I don’t know. Yeah. I think it’s just a balance that I’m trying to figure out.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, now what advice would you give to leaders and aspiring leaders who are starting to have their own feelings about climate? From your perspective, from the perspective of a Seven or just in general?

Mariyah Jahangiri:

Yeah. I would say I think the one thing I’m really noticing is that I actually meet a lot of people who have feelings about climate change. Like, most people that I meet, especially my age, I think it’s like one of the most, I don’t know, significant things affecting the whole like generation Z. So it’s kind of hard to be a young person and not have emotions around climate change, which makes sense. But I do think like most of those people aren’t organizers or aren’t necessarily taking action on those feelings. So I definitely get confused between the gap between having such strong feelings around it, sadness around it, but then not being tapped into like community spaces that can like help with processing that and healing that and being with people who are very aligned. Instead of kind of like suppressing it, or just like kind of being apathetic because there’s no way to solve climate change.

Mariyah Jahangiri:

That definitely makes sense to me, that apathy makes sense. I think it’s like a defining characteristic of Gen Z, honestly, to be a little bit apathetic because of just not believing that things are going to change, which is honestly super valid. But I do think that kind of stunts your emotional growth as a person. So even if you don’t think something is going to change, like kind of putting that aside and suppressing it or being like, yeah, I don’t care, or I don’t want to be in community people, it’s not going to help you kind of heal or process or grow from those emotions.

Mariyah Jahangiri:

So I guess my advice would be even if you don’t believe in the power of organizing or like structural wins around climate change, still making sure you set aside time for that processing to be in community with people who are aligned with you and to make those like small pockets of change that you can locally. I think it just brings a certain amount of joy and healing that I think would be really good for most people.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s so well said. It’s carrying around the climate reality while you’re living a lifestyle with people around you that don’t seem to care, it kind of creates this cognitive dissonance that starts to weigh on you. And I think you rightly point out that the best way to overcome that is start to move into communities that are aligned with your values and are starting to take actions so that it satisfies both of those outlets. Not only are you now aligned with people with your values, you’re doing something about it. And it’s, like you said, very healing, very healing.

Mariyah Jahangiri:

Exactly.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And I just so appreciate all the work you’re doing and all your organizing and leadership and your remarkable insights and self-awareness as a leader is just such a delight to talk to you. I hope that we can continue the conversation in the future as you progress and you learn more about what’s working well, and what’s not in your organizing efforts. So thanks again.

Mariyah Jahangiri:

Yeah. Thank you so much.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for watching. Wow. I really loved how Mariyah explains so well, her ability to engage in the emotionally fraught climate movement. While Type Sevens tend to steer clear of emotionally challenging work, Mariyah has a gift that allows her to compartmentalize those emotions and bring her wonderful Type Seven energy to developing active caring communities. She also strikes a balance of making space for emotions while still actively problem solving, getting to action and getting stuff done.

Matt Schlegel:

If you found this conversation helpful, please click on the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel to get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, please leave them in the comments section and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

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