Team Effectiveness

World-renowned migraine pain and treatment expert, Dr. Sheena Aurora, shares her personal experiences of leadership growth using self-awareness of her dominant Enneagram dynamic—Enneagram Type 8. She shares how she uses this understanding to better lead her team.

Dr. Aurora makes great points about being a Type 8 leader. Type 8s have very strong intuition and often know exactly what to do. When working with teams, the intuitive Type 8s can already be many steps ahead of the group.  As a leader, Dr. Aurora shares how she’s learned to take the time and carefully explain everything to her team in a logical way. She describes this technique as tapping into the Type 7 dynamic, which I thought was very insightful. Also, I appreciated her perspective as a woman leader, and the importance and challenges of accepting and embracing the Type 8 leadership style as a woman in leadership positions.

[Video Transcript]

Matt :                                    Thanks for joining me in conversation with leaders, who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool, and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’ll be speaking with Dr. Sheena Aurora, a world-renowned expert in the treatment of migraine pain. She’s been using Enneagram as a leadership tool for over 10 years and shares insights into how she’s grown her leadership style based on her self-awareness of her Enneagram type. And now for the conversation.

I am delighted to be speaking today with Dr. Sheena Aurora. Dr. Aurora is a world-renowned expert in the field of neurology, with extensive experience in mechanisms for migraine related pain. Currently, she’s VP of medical affairs at Impel NeuroPharma, working towards migraine relief treatments. Sheena served in leadership roles in numerous organizations like Eli Lilly, Stanford University, Swedish Neuroscience Institute in Seattle.

And in fact, Sheena was voted as one of the best doctors in Seattle Magazine’s, Seattle’s Best Doctors in both 2010 and 2011. So what at an amazing list of accomplishments? So Sheena is also a close family friend, and we’ve had many conversations about the Enneagram. And she’s used her knowledge of the system in the workplace, and I’m eager to learn how the Enneagram has served her as a leadership tool. So Sheena, thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Thank you, Matt. Always a pleasure, and thanks for all the inspiration. And I thank you every day when I’m using the tools to try and be a better leader.

Matt :    That is fantastic. So I think that we did an Enneagram workshop together, probably the first time was at Stanford. So you’ve been using it for over 10 years now.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Yes. I think at Stanford it was more of an individual test, and I came to your workshop. Oh no. Actually, you did work with some of my colleagues there. That’s correct. That’s correct.

Matt :    Right. Right.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Yes.

Matt :    I remember we met with a group and we did a little thing, so that was really great.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          That’s correct.

Matt :    Well, let me start by asking you this. As you were on your Enneagram journey, what did you discover about yourself that you really didn’t know or appreciate before?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Thank you, Matt. So one is when I just looked at Enneagrams and was talking casually, I was labeled as a 3. And when I read about the 3, it sort of resonated. So I would encourage everyone who is really interested in this. As a neuroscientist, I’m also interested in the Enneagram because it makes more scientific intuitive sense compared to some of the other personality tools, et cetera, that it is.

I think it’s a wonderful framework. And I’m a huge fan of your book, and I try and use that on almost on a daily basis. So once I did the test and did a couple of workshops, I realized that I was an 8. And I think that just like other tools, I think that this gave me more of an insight to who I was naturally as a person. And perhaps some of the qualities of an 8, which I think everybody has some aspects in their Enneagram that works for them as a leader and some perhaps that they need to work on, which intuitively doesn’t come together and it’s certainly I’ve had a journey where as a physician and then in practice, I’ve been an individual contributor. And then when you take on leadership roles, you realize that those principles that make an 8 so strong as an individual contributor does not make you a good leader or a leader that I want to be.

So my leadership style is almost more of a servant leadership where I wanna remove obstacles. So for that, I had to adjust what was intuitive to me.

Matt :    Oh, that is so interesting. So you’re using the word intuitive, cause that’s your go-to style being in the intuitive center of the 8. And then just realizing that that doesn’t always work as a leader and that sometimes you have to bring more of the thinking part of it into it. And I’ve heard this from other 8 leaders as well like, you already know what to do, but you have to explain it to everybody else in order to get them to come along. So that’s where that 7 energy comes in, right?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Right.

Matt :    Because 7s are really good at explaining things. Oh, that is fantastic insight. Thank you. So now, how are you using the Enneagram in the workplace in terms of working with your team?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          So I think as an 8, like you so correctly pointed out, I have the intuition, I have the strategy piece. I’m a big person … The big idea person, but implementation or how to distill it down is not my strong suit. And sometimes I have to be reminded. And what I’ve made my team aware is I wanna be a better leader. These are the principles that I wanna operate on. Are these the principles that you believe that I should operate on?

So first, I get a buy-in and then I say to them, “Please help me get that,” because I’m okay to be reminded that not everybody’s on the same page as me. I remember when I was a lot younger and I didn’t know that, I would give people the headline, and all the thinking that had gone behind me bringing that to fruition, to me it was just not important.

But I do realize that now it’s not only important to get somewhere, but how you got there and how to bring everybody along, it works a lot better. Now, I can’t promise I do it every time, but I do try.

Matt :    Right. Right. Right. And I love how you’ve brought your whole team into the conversation and established that baseline for how to work together and then reminding people that you want to be held to a standard. And it’s okay for people to remind you that, “Hey, we’re living to this standards.” What a great conversation to have with your team. That’s fantastic.

So now having used the Enneagram for a while and reflecting on it, what advice would you give to other leaders of your same Enneagram type, Enneagram type 8?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          So I think that one is realize that you’re an 8 and embrace it. I think in my whole life, I’ve tried to get away from being an 8, but I think you embrace it. You realize the qualities that you intuitively have, and you try and … And although I do believe in honing on strengths, I also realized that sometimes when things that make your strengths not appear as strengths.

So for example, my sense of humor is a bit sarcastic and that doesn’t always bode well, particularly with my teenage children. And I would say that even as part of being a team leader, sarcasm is not embraced by all. So I would say use it to your advantage when you’re trying to give the cliff note version to someone, or when you’re talking to another 8, then it’s fine to use.

So I think doing workshops and doing team building events … I think what I love about the Enneagram so much is that it’s helped me figure out who I am. And having figured out who I am makes me a better leader.

Matt :    Well, that’s so well said and that’s so interesting how you point out that when you’re with other people of your type, it’s just so easy. Things just click, but not everybody is your same type, and other people have different perspectives and different sensitivities. And you are learning to essentially modulate some of your type A behaviors … Oh excuse me, type 8 behaviors when you are with other types.

And another thing that you brought up too, I think, which is really important that especially for women in leadership roles, oftentimes it is more challenging and there’s a lot of societal pressure that you mentioned. It’s like, I don’t want to be a type 8, but you are a type 8 and you should be allowed to be a type 8 and be the leader who you are.

And I think, like you said, just embrace it and then understand it and move forward with it. And that’s such great advice, Sheena. So thank you so much. Did you have a final thought you wanted to share?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          I just wanted to share that when you said other women, I now know a young woman who’s in her mid 20s who is in marketing. So I just asked her. I said, “What do you guys do these days for team building, just to know about your team?”. And she said, oh we do the Enneagram. I said, oh, I love the Enneagram. And so she looks at me very, and she says, what type are you? And I said, I’m an 8. And she says, I’m an 8 too. But I don’t like to say I’m an 8. And I said, Jess, embrace it because you’ve got such strong on skills, but I, I get that mad. I mean, I look at my daughter and she’s 14 and I don’t know what type she is we have to wait to what she evolves, but it’s confusing for women.

Like, do you lean in, do you not lean in, lean in doesn’t seem to be working? And I think that’s, that’s a personal struggle that all type 8 women go through because intuitively that’s our nature. We are big picture, big ideas, big strategists, we are the visionaries, we get it, we can gel things together and we want to go at a million miles an hour and we just want people to remove get out of our way and just let us go. And, and I think that that becomes really, really challenging. And so if you think of other ideas, I would love to know them. I am trying to put together my particular field is migraine or headache. I want to put some networking for women together to see how do we bring others along in this framework.

Matt :    Right. That’s, that’s so great. Well, thank you so much for sharing your, your thoughts and your insights with us today. Sheena I can’t tell you how much I’ve enjoyed our conversations and working with you on this and how much you’ve embraced it. And I hope that you’ll come back and share more insights in the future.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Absolutely Matt, it’s a pleasure and you’ve helped me so much. So it’s the feelings of mutual. Thanks.

Matt :    All right. Thank you so much. Bye now.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Bye.

Matt :    Thanks for watching. Sheena made so many great points about being a type 8 leader, type 8s have very strong intuition and often know exactly what to do. The problem is when working with teams, they might not be on same page. And Sheena describes that she’s learned to take the time and carefully explain everything to her team in a logical way. And she describes that as tapping into the type 7 dynamic, which I thought was very insightful. And then I also appreciated perspective as a woman leader and the importance and challenges of accepting and embracing being a type 8 leader in a organizational situation. So if you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel and get notifications of future episodes. And if you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again.

The Enneagram Leadership Interview series continues! In this episode, insurance professional and entrepreneur, Jan Berthold, shares how she used the Enneagram with her team to build an award-winning insurance firm.

I really enjoy Jan’s story of how she used the Enneagram with a coach to understand and manage Type A behaviors associated with Enneagram Type 3.   I also appreciated her story about a relationship she developed at work with an Enneagram Type 2 and how complementary the Type 2/Type 3 relationship can be.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for joining me today in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’m speaking with Jan Berthold. Jan is an author and an insurance professional who started an insurance brokerage firm from scratch and won numerous awards. She tells a great story of an Enneagram Type 3 becoming self-aware. Now, for our conversation.

I’m delighted to be speaking today with Jan Berthold. Jan is an author and her most recent work is The 80/20 CFO: The Guide to Making Strategic Transformation in Your Company. Jan is an insurance professional with Heffernan Insurance Brokers. Before that, she started an insurance brokerage firm from scratch. It was recognized by The Business Journal as one of the fastest-growing companies in Santa Clara County for 8 years, as well as being listed as one of the top 10 women-owned businesses and top privately-held companies for nine years. Jan also serves on the Board of Fellows for Santa Clara University and Jan is very familiar with the Enneagram and I’m eager to learn more how she’s used this powerful system as a leadership tool. Jan, thank you so much for joining me today.

Jan Berthold:                     Thank you, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:                   I just want to start off and I’d like you to share with the audience, how and when did you first discover the Enneagram?

Jan Berthold:                     Well, I was in a Type A modification class for probably 15 years. I wanted to be more Type B. I thought I was way out of control and I just didn’t want to be that way for my family and my kids and model that, so the instructor or the moderator for my Type A modification group was Dr. Jenna Price. It just turned out that Dr. Jenna Price partnered with Dr. Milton Friedman, who wrote the book Type A Behavior and Your Heart. She was an Enneagram expert and she took his book and her knowledge of the Enneagram and merged them into a whole practice. That was amazing, how she showed how people had Type A behavior and how it related to the Enneagram.

Then she wrote a book called The Enneagram and Type A Behavior, I believe it is. She has since passed away and I tried to find the book and I couldn’t even find it on Amazon. I was hoping I could show you a copy of it because it was an amazing book, the way she correlated the Enneagram with the pitfalls of Type A behavior and it just added so much depth and richness to the whole experience to be able to bring that Enneagram in. Of course, she knew every single person, it was an all women’s group and there were like 14 of us and she knew every single one of us, what our buttons were, what our pitfalls were. She was incredible. She was brilliant.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Jan Berthold:                     That’s my experience with the Enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:                   That is fascinating, looking at type a behaviors through the lens of the Enneagram and how each one of the types can come out and express that Type A behavior. Oh.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Well, if you do find that book, let me know because I definitely want to read that.

Jan Berthold:                     I know. I know. I can’t find it anywhere.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, so as you were going through that process, what did you discover about yourself that you may not have known or appreciated before?

Jan Berthold:                     Well, again, she nailed it and the Enneagram nailed it. Basically, I’m a performer and I always had this feeling in myself that I’m not good enough just the way I am, that I have to perform, and I could see that when I was growing up. I always had to get the best grades, I always had to be the smartest, I always had to be the best. It’s like I had this inner hole inside of me that I just wasn’t enough. It wasn’t good enough for me just to be here. I had to perform and then I was also the oldest of five children and so that all played into it. That’s what I learned.

Matt Schlegel:                   Wow. Wow. What Enneagram type did you land on as you went through that process?

Jan Berthold:                     Well, the performer is the one.

Matt Schlegel:                   That’s Type 8, is that-

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, I think it’s 8, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   … Okay.

Jan Berthold:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative). Then I also had a little bit of the perfectionist, which of course feeds into it. I probably need to go back and refresh my memory, but that’s what I remember.

Matt Schlegel:                   Got it, got it. Yeah, a lot of those Type A behaviors, there’s a lot of overlap between Type 3 and Type 8 and performer, that’s a little bit of a ambiguous word, too. The 8 is often called the “asserter” and the 3 is the “achiever.” The performer, where does that land? It’s interesting what words we use to describe the different types, but you’re pretty confident that you landed on the Type 8 behavior?

Jan Berthold:                     But maybe it was the achiever. I mean, “achiever” sounds more like the performer to me, always this relentless need to perform to achieve, to be better, to be better tomorrow than I was yesterday. I still have that, you know?

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, right, right.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, so maybe you’re actually the Type 3, that achiever that has that relentless drive to success.

Jan Berthold:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right, yeah. That’s exactly it.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah. Now, as a leader, you brought the Enneagram into the workspace. How did you use the Enneagram with your team?

Jan Berthold:                     Okay, so when I owned my company, I did the Enneagram on everyone in the company. It was so interesting because I had one person who was like my right-hand person. She totally ran the back office. She was like a superwoman and she was the giver and it was really enlightening for her and for me to nail that down and she could see how she would give, give, give, give, give, and then she’d get resentful. Something would trigger, somebody didn’t appreciate it, whatever, and it was like that. This is something that she learned and I learned and so that helped.

Then we had another person who was… The 3 of us were really leading the agency. She was a total off-the-wall, I mean, total perfectionist, and so in retrospect, we put her in charge of some things that probably didn’t make sense because of her perfectionism. Her standards were so high for everyone and it made her frustrated and it made us frustrated, so in retrospect, I probably should have not made her in charge of all of our procedures and making sure that everybody toed the line, but those are things you learn in retrospect.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right, because she’ll take that to heart and make sure-

Jan Berthold:                     Oh, man, did she ever? Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   … I can only imagine.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, so we needed you, Matt Schlegel, back then to… We needed your team Teamwork 9.0 book, but it didn’t exist back then.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Well, and the Enneagram in general, it’s such a great tool for, one, helping us understand these dynamics, but then giving us a vocabulary to talk about it with our teammates, right?

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, exactly.

Matt Schlegel:                   Because now, we have a common language that we can work through these things, and it’s no longer so personal. It comes more of this, “Oh, yeah. This is my main dynamic and this is what I’m doing.” You can talk about it a little more objectively.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   The other thing that you mentioned, too, it sounds like that the giver is the Type Two.

Jan Berthold:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Schlegel:                   It’s really common for Type Twos and Type 3s to team up and work together because they’re very complementary, whereas the 3 is just so focused on getting stuff done and achieving and sometimes you can lose track of essentially what people are feeling in the environment, whereas the giver, the Type Two, is really tuned into that.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, she was.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, and then she could give you some feedback on, “Hey, let’s take care of this or that,” which if it has something to do with feelings, it might be in your blind spot where it’s a bright red flag to her, and by teaming up, you can really complement each other and make sure that everybody is taken care of not only getting the job done but their emotional needs are also being taken care of as well, which can be very important.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah. That’s totally true and that’s exactly how it played out.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. Yeah, I mean, that’s great that you were able to use the Enneagram to come to those conclusions and then just develop even a stronger bond together. Yeah, yeah.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, we do. We were amazing together.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, that is great. That’s great.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Jan, tell me, what advice would you give to other leaders of your same type, Type 3?

Jan Berthold:                     It’s really hard to change the way you are sometimes but I think it’s really important to do the work and to realize that you don’t always have to be number one and that you’re great just the way you are. My daughter reminds me of this all the time. Just take more time to meditate, to think, to be more reflective, I think. The Enneagram and this Type A modification class really helped me. It changed my whole journey and changed my relationships in so many positive ways, so they kind of worked hand-in-hand.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. That’s great also that you have brought your daughter on this journey as well and she’s being supportive of you and giving you some feedback: “Mom. You don’t need to do all of that today.”

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that’s her, uh-huh (affirmative).

Matt Schlegel:                   Yep, we have a similar dynamic in our family, so I’m very well aware of this.

Jan Berthold:                     Uh-huh (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Schlegel:                   Well, thank you so much, Jan. I really appreciate your sharing, your stories and that insight, especially that powerful story of really understanding as that Type 3/Type A achiever how important it is to recognize that tendency in yourself and to learn to just end up being at peace with yourself so you’re not so driven all the time and influencing all the relationships around you, so thank you so much for doing that.

Jan Berthold:                     Thank you, Matt Schlegel, and thank you for writing the book. It’s great, it’s very-

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, yes, it was my pleasure. I really appreciate how you got so much out of it and sharing with that and I hope you can come back again and share more stories about how you use the Enneagram and Teamwork 9.0 as a leader.

Jan Berthold:                     … Okay. Thank you, Matt Schlegel.

Matt Schlegel:                   All right, thanks. Bye.

Jan Berthold:                     Bye.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks so much for watching. I really enjoyed Jan’s story of her using the Enneagram as a tool to understand and manage her Type A behaviors and how her coach was familiar with the Enneagram and gave her the vocabulary to understand and address those issues. I also appreciated the story that she told about the relationship she developed at work with a Type Two who she called “the giver” who’s the external, emotional type, somebody who’s very in touch with their emotions, and how teaming up with the Type Two can be a very complementary relationship for a Type 3.

If you found this helpful, please click on the Thumbs Up button, subscribe to the channel, and get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again.

 

 

 

 

 

Associate Director of Development at Gemini Observatory, Scot Kleinman, is an Enneagram Type 3 leader. Scot shares insights about his personal journey of growth and how he uses the Enneagram in a work environment with people who are predominantly scientists.

Check out Scot’s YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2lJ7RdBBowLLON762LQ6Qg

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’ll be speaking with Scot Kleinman associate director of development at Gemini Observatory on the big island of Hawaii. Scott’s been using the Enneagram for about 10 years, and will share some fascinating insights about Enneagram type 3. If you enjoy these conversations, please click on the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel. And now for our conversation.

I am delighted to have Scot Kleinman here with us today. Scott is the associate director of development at Gemini Observatory and previously managed instrumentation at the Subaru Telescope, and before that, nighttime operations for the first Sloan Digital Sky Survey. He has a PhD in astronomy and a master’s of business administration. His research interests are stellar pulsations, white dwarf stars, and large scale surveys. Besides building and managing telescopes and observatories, he writes a blog about astronomy management, and develop and leads a number of short courses on efficient work habits and leadership. He lives in Hawaii with his wife and 11 year old daughter, he has a couple of German cars, some surfboards, a water ski and a unicycle. And Scot is also a college buddy and dear friend, and I remember him riding his unicycle back and forth to class in college. Scot, welcome.

Scot Kleinman :                 Thank you, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:                   Well, I am so delighted to have you here with us today. You’ve attended a couple of workshops I’ve conducted in which you’ve shared your insights about your journey of understanding your Enneagram type and all of the epiphanies that you’ve had along the way. And it’s always been so fascinating to hear you explain that to the group. And so, I just want to start and ask you, how did you come to know the Enneagram?

Scot Kleinman :                 So, I had this crazy friend in college who you might know, who came to me one day with this great discovery in that he learned this sort of system that allowed him to better predict what other people were doing, which had allowed him to sort of control things and then wake up sort of a little less anxious because he kind of knew how people were going to behave. And so, he brought this thing to me and I said, “Wow, this is great, I can learn about people and get them to do more work for me.”

Matt Schlegel:                   So, what type would like to get more work out of people?

Scot Kleinman :                 Exactly right, I mean, the irony of our different initial buy-in right to the Enneagram, it didn’t really occur to me until later, right. To me, this was a new tool I could use to get more work done. And yes, I’m an Enneagram type 3. So for me, it started off really as that sort of a tool, I can better organize my team, better assign tasks to my team members, et cetera, by knowing what their motivations and drives are. And then it’s expanded since then in how I see things and how I use things, that’s really how it started. So, thank you, Matt, for bringing this to my attention.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, well, I am so glad that you got so much out of it and you have embraced it both in your work and personal life. And speaking of that, so as you were getting to know the Enneagram, what did you discover about yourself that you may not have really understood as well before?

Scot Kleinman :                 That’s a continual and ongoing process, I think. So, I can tell you some of what I’ve learned so far. I think the most surprising thing was when you described… You said since you were six of feeling anxiety so strong that the only way to deal with it is just to suppress it and go on. Now, I mean, eventually you learn to bring it out and accept it, right?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Scot Kleinman :                 But it was just really intense anxiety, and so you just can’t function. And you said, “Hey, Scott, 3s are like that with emotion.” And I’m like, “Okay, fine.” I understood that analogy and the Enneagram says this, but it never really felt real because I was still suppressing my emotions.

Matt Schlegel:                   Sure.

Scot Kleinman :                 And so, it wasn’t until I finally started to bring those out and deal with… My mental analogy is I had this sort of box with a lid, and any strong emotion that I had heard since a fairly young age, I think, got stuffed into that box. It was in there with its feeling, but not necessarily with its attachment, but what it was attached to. Occasionally those would leak out and I’d feel something, like there’s nothing for it to be associated with. And so, I really had to go into that box, open it up, feel all those things, and then there was another message behind that, which was the sense at a fairly young age that I was not feeling enough. I could not feel enough to relieve the suffering and the feelings, the bad feelings of others. And I interpreted that as something wrong with me, that I couldn’t feel enough to do good, and bad things were still happening in life, and I wasn’t able to affect that.

So, sort of when that came out, I realized that I do have very strong emotions, despite the fact that most of my life I acted as if I had no emotions. And so, now I understand that analogy that you presented to me years ago with anxiety and emotion, because I would not have said, “No, I don’t feel emotions deeply,” but I do, I very much do. And so, that was really one of the biggest discovers is doing it. And then figuring out how do I exist within that rather than continuing to bury them, right? How do I live with that and function? That’s sort of what’s been going on since that discovery.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, that is so fascinating. Hey, and another thing that struck me there is that analogy between the suppressed anxiety and the suppressed emotions, and sometimes my natural style also is to press the anxiety, and sometimes the anxiety comes out, and I too may not know what that is attached to.

Scot Kleinman :                 Right.

Matt Schlegel:                   But now just being aware of, “Oh, here comes the anxiety,” it allows me to understand that it’s coming out and then start to be able to figure out, “Okay, what is it attached to?” Have you also been able to have a better understanding of what the emotions that are coming out are attached to?

Scot Kleinman :                 Yeah, so certainly in the moment, so new emotions, I’m much better able now to experience as they arise and be more emotionally present in the moment. This sort of past backlog that was just a really strong backlog of overpowering emotion, and it would just be overwhelming when it would come out. And that was kind of a core feature of just my existence, was these occasional overpowering emotions that would come out, and I would usually have to stuff back down again because I wasn’t ready to be overpowered by emotions. And that’s gone now, and I got rid of that just by sitting with them for a while, spending some time sitting with those emotions, and just feeling sad or lonely or whatever.

And then I got some of these other messages. There’s a lot of shame, there was shame and guilt, I think, for not being emotionally available. So, every time I felt that emotion or a connection from somebody and didn’t respond emotionally, not only did I stuff that emotion in that box, I also added a new emotion, which was guilt or shame for not being emotionally present in that moment. No idea any of this was going on, but when I sat with these emotions and started to figure what they were telling me, that was one of the things they were telling me. I felt really bad as I was an incompetent person for not responding and being emotionally connected with people.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, wow.

Scot Kleinman :                 In terms of, did I learn what they were talking about? Yes, and that was one of those messages that came out as I sat with them, was my process.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, that is so insightful, Scot, thank you for sharing that, that’s amazing. So, just shifting gears a little bit, where have you been able to or how have you been able to use the Enneagram in the workplace and as a leader?

Scot Kleinman :                 So, I can get more done from my staff.

Matt Schlegel:                   Getting stuff done, that’s what 3s do.

Scot Kleinman :                 Yeah, so there’s a few different things, I’ve sort of taken different approaches. One I was just thinking of the other day. There was a seven on a team that I inherited, and for a long time I never could quite figure out what to do with him. I liked him, friendly guy, knowledgeable, but I couldn’t go into his office and say, “Can you write me a report on this?” A, he was never in his office, and if he was, was on the phone or listening to music too loud and disturbing everybody else. So, he just wasn’t the kind of guy who you can sit down and write [inaudible 00:10:57] on something.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Scot Kleinman :                 And if I wanted just to solve a technical issue, he wasn’t that kind of person either who was going to roll up his sleeves and solve something, and he was never around. So, I just kind of couldn’t quite figure out what to do with him. And then, as I sort of thought about it and realized the strengths of a seven the connections. He knew everybody.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Scot Kleinman :                 And he also knew the big picture because he knew how all the pieces fit together. If you ask him how each little piece was constructed, he may or may not know. But he knew enough about each piece to you know how they were connected, and that this piece over here depends on this piece over here. He had that network, both technical and social just on tap. And so, I started realizing that is his super strength, and that’s where I can use him.

So, now I talk to him about a project maybe that’s not going well and figure out what’s going on, or, “We’ve got a lot of different ways we can attack this particular problem, can you sort of figure out what’s the best payoff and talk to people and figure out how we’re going to approach this?” Or, “We’ve got a problem, we need to build a team, can you give me some suggestions on how to do it?” Fantastic at those things.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Scot Kleinman :                 This helped me in that example, but the different types as well is to appreciate someone whose strengths are not mine, and to not only appreciate them, but then value them because they’re not my strengths. And this is that person’s super power, which is a super power I don’t have, and that’s how that person is happy, and that’s how I get more work done, [inaudible 00:12:39].

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, oh, that is such a great example, that’s wonderful, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, sevens, they really are such great networkers, and they love that interaction with people, and they get bored so easily with that kind of detailed work that doesn’t allow them to be interacting. And so, just knowing that and focusing them on what they’re great at, and what they love, and keeping them away from the things they don’t love, it’s magic, right?

Scot Kleinman :                 Yeah, because I would have thought this person was just kind of this useless FTE, and now I have a whole slew of stuff that I’d like this person to help us with.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, oh, perfect. So, just one final question, Scot, what advice would you give for other leaders of your Enneagram type, type 3?

Scot Kleinman :                 So, I’m always torn, I don’t know how much of my personal experiences are me and how much is a 3. I know there’s obviously a blending, but for me, the real key to growth has been just using the Enneagram as personal discovery, and embracing my emotional side, and backing off from that constantly wanting to impress people for what I do, learning to react to people. I think, you asked in one of your workshop, “How do you get along with a 3?” And the simple answer is, “Praise a 3 for something they’ve done, 3s love that.”

And yes, I eat that up, but then I think back in my life, “Where are the interactions that are really memorable?” And there are those rare occasions when I’ve let people in and heard the message that they appreciate me for me, that it doesn’t matter what I do, or maybe it’s despite what I do, they appreciate me for me. And those were key moments. I didn’t quite realize why until later on when I went through that, but that allows me to stop and relax, instead of constantly judging my interaction with you, “Is this going over well or do you like me? How is this going? Do I need to adjust my approach and be a little bit more like this, or maybe a little bit more like this in order to get that appreciation?” It allows me to relax, and that’s a huge relief.

So, I think just understanding that 3s, I think, one of their super powers when they get over that initial hump, is authenticity, it’s emotional authenticity, and you can’t do that unless you’re willing to go through that work yourself, and be vulnerable yourself, and start offering some of those emotional connections that I traditionally shunned. I would never go into an employee’s office and say, “Hey, how was your kid’s basketball practice?” I would say, “How’s that report?”

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Scot Kleinman :                 Because that’s what I needed, right? And so, you’re learning that not only does that work for other people, but it also works for me. And so, that made me feel more comfortable, and it allows the more emotionally adjusted staff than the non-immature 3s, it allows them to connect and feel better. So, I think really going through that process and understanding the power of your own emotions really, for me, that’s just been a whole eye-opener, a world life changer.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, that is amazing, Scott, and thank you for sharing that, and I think that everybody can really benefit from just having the self-awareness that comes out of really exploring your Enneagram type in depth, any Enneagram type, but I think that’s brilliant that that worked out so well for you.

And I just want to say that I appreciate you for you being you, I have for years and years and years, and I just value our friendship so much and all the time that we’ve spent together over the years, and thank you so much for coming here today and sharing your stories, and hopefully you’ll come back again in the future and share some more of your insights.

Scot Kleinman :                 Well, thanks, Matt, that means a lot to me, and glad I could join you today.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for watching. If you found this helpful click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel, and get notifications of future episodes. If you have a question, please leave it in the comment section and I’ll get to it as soon as possible. Thanks again.