Leadership

Péllo Walker first discovered the Enneagram in a Helen Palmer-led workshop.  He has since used this powerful tool, both personally and professionally, for the last 30 years. I could really feel Péllo’s Type 8 style come through in this interview.  He uses his boundless energy as a leader of his company, Daily Digital Imaging, as well as participating on a number of boards and in mentorship roles. I enjoyed learning how many of his roles now resemble activities associated with Enneagram Type 2, along the Type 8’s path of integration.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’m speaking with Péllo Walker, President of Daily Digital Imaging. Péllo’s been using the Enneagram for nearly 30 years now and he shares his journey of becoming a more self-aware leader. Now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

I’m delighted to be speaking today Péllo Walker, President of Daily Digital Imaging, not only does Péllo apply his boundless energy towards delivering creative marketing solutions for his customers, he also loves public speaking, mentoring other leaders and serving as a board member for a number of organizations.

Matt Schlegel:

I’ve known Péllo for 15 years, but it wasn’t until recently that we discovered our shared passion for using the Enneagram as a leadership tool. I’m eager to learn more about how Péllo uses the Enneagram, both with his team and with the leaders who he mentors. Péllo, thank you so much for joining me today.

Péllo Walker:

Thank you, Matt. I appreciate the opportunity. It’s an honor and a pleasure.

Matt Schlegel:

Oh, lovely. My first question for you is, how and when did you first discover the Enneagram?

Péllo Walker:

It was 1994. It was a live panel of nine different Enneagram points, over an entire weekend with Helen Palmer, who was facilitating it. What do I mean by a panel? We would have an audience, probably about 300 people in the audience. Up on a stage, a raised stage, there were 8 to 10 chairs and then the facilitator.

Péllo Walker:

They would do Point One, Point 2, Point Three, but they didn’t go necessarily in order, they went in different orders that made sense to her and how it made sense to present to us, the audience, who mostly didn’t know anything about it. Some of us did. I did not. It was 1994, it was in Mill Valley, California. I remember it to this day, as if it was yesterday, it changed my life. It changed the way that I looked at the world and more importantly, it changed how I looked at myself. That was huge.

Matt Schlegel:

It’s such a powerful way to learn the Enneagram when you see the different points up on the stage. You see them acting in their typneness and things just start to click in our brain. It’s like, “Oh, I understand that. Oh, I understand that.” Yeah, that is a very powerful way to first come to the Enneagram. Just really resonates. When you went through that, what was the thing that you discovered about yourself that you didn’t know before?

Péllo Walker:

There’s so much, that’s a pretty loaded question. What it felt like was, you see one of those big bank vaults with cash on the other side and they show a photograph inside of the big, huge tumblers. There’s super precision and all these things have to fit together or the Vault’s not opening, because it has multiple lock points.

Péllo Walker:

It was like the whole puzzle, the whole combination came together, click, click, click, click and my life was forever different. Because it wasn’t just what I learned about myself, it was the subtypes. Self preservation, the sexual or social.

Péllo Walker:

I found out that I love food, I belong to the San Francisco Professional Food Society. I’m a member, I’m a gourmet cook. I offer 8 course gourmet suppers for the nonprofits that I sit on that go for thousands of dollars. Very formal, the best of the best.

Péllo Walker:

I wake up in the morning and my wife says, “You’re thinking about supper, it’s breakfast.” I said, “Yeah.” I didn’t realize that, oh, that’s a preservation, that’s something I’m taking care of. That’s a natural nurturing of myself and anybody who’s in my sphere. That I learned about myself.

Péllo Walker:

The other thing is that I take up a lot of energy and a lot of space and that scares people. That’s off putting to others. I never understood that before. All I knew was my feelings were always being hurt, but I didn’t know it was my feelings. I just got angry and I didn’t understand it until after I saw the panel.

Péllo Walker:

I realized, “Oh, I’m really hurt.” Now, I’m talking to you right now with all the cycles around the sun, going back 1994 forward. So, this isn’t something that I could have articulated in 1994. I just knew in my head, “Ah, something’s different about my emotions or it’s misplaced, but I didn’t know what it was. I didn’t know how to articulate it.

Péllo Walker:

Now, I could articulate it as easily as ordering breakfast, but it wasn’t easy. Because, for me, I’m an American high school football player. I’m at 300-log scuba dives, river rafting guy, military guy. That’s all vulnerable stuff. Masculinity’s big in the conversation in social culture right now. That’s all part of who I am and I realized that has nothing to do with anything.

Péllo Walker:

That changed how I am with others, especially my perception of weak men, whatever that is. Soft, pretty boys, they have had a charmed life. If people can bump up against me and stand my energy, even my dialed-back energy, I have a lot more respect for that person, because I know it takes a lot to be around me or be in relationship with me. I’m very aware and sensitive to that. But again, I couldn’t have told you that in 1994. I mean, this is a relatively new thing, as in the last 10 years, maybe?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. I mean, it’s one of the powerful things about the Enneagram, is that it gives us a vocabulary. With which, once we could start to put these names on these things that we are feeling or we’re going through, once you actually have the words to describe them. Then, it’s really a lot easier for us to understand them and then manage them.

Matt Schlegel:

It sounds like that’s what you went through. Understanding that a lot of what is at the core of the 8 is that feeling of vulnerability and how you manifest that feeling into that outward energy. Often anger, to make sure that that vulnerable person inside is taken care of, right?

Péllo Walker:

Yeah. Protected, right?

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. You’re protecting that vulnerability in you. That is so powerful, Péllo, that you are able to go through that journey and then just understand, “Ah, that is what is going on inside.” No, I know we could go on all day long, because this is such a great conversation. But, I want to wrap up and just ask, what advice would you give to other leaders of your type? Of Enneagram Type 8?

Péllo Walker:

2 words, be curious, be introspective. Those are 2 simple ideas and they’re hard. If you’re not curious about the other and you’re not introspective about yourself and how you play against the others, vis a vis, that would be the best thing that you can do. I know that my energy, I can take up the space that I need to take up. I’m going to be the person that I need to be.

Péllo Walker:

I’m not going to sublimate who I am for somebody else’s comfort. I, however, know that I care enough about the other, that I am perfectly willing, on my own, to just dial it down. Or, public speaking, its pace, pause and pitch. So, my pace becomes slower. I take more pauses between words. I soften my voice, so I’m talking softer. So people can have time to bring it in, because I, this 8, I think quickly, I make decisions quickly. I move quickly. I make big-energy movements.

Péllo Walker:

I’m about he’s a military guy, I’m about execution and implementation. I’m a man of action. I want to get something done. Those are measured by behaviors. If behaviors and actions and deeds aren’t followed by what you’re saying, then that’s just a bunch of yak-yak. I know that, as a leader, I have to lead by example. I also have to share where I’m going.

Péllo Walker:

As a leader, it’s my responsibility to provide value for those that are following or to get to buy into to my vision and where they fit into that vision. How I see them fitting into that vision. Otherwise, I’m doing them a disservice and they’re just a thing like a chair. That, I can’t countenance. That’s not fairness. Introspection and be curious, that’s what I would say.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, yeah. That is so great. You having that self-awareness of how big you present and how that can be intimidating to others and shut other people down and knowing how to tone that down. You’ve learned that you actually increase the receptivity of others to what you’re saying, when you start to modulate that bigness. That is really great advice, Péllo.

Matt Schlegel:

Thank you again for joining me today and sharing these stories. I am planning on doing and a series on Enneagram and creativity. I know you bring a lot of creativity to the work that you do at Daily Digital Imaging. I would love to have you come back and maybe we could just talk about what it means to be creative from the 8 perspective.

Péllo Walker:

I’d be happy to do that. Be an honor and a privilege. It might be interesting to have several 8s or several of one, sorry. Anyway, it’s just-

Matt Schlegel:

All right. Yeah, yeah. I could see that creative juice already flowing.

Péllo Walker:

Sorry, sorry. Sorry. I apologize.

Matt Schlegel:

Don’t be, don’t be. All right, Péllo.

Péllo Walker:

All right.

Matt Schlegel:

Well, thank you again. I really appreciate it.

Péllo Walker:

Thank you, Matt. I appreciate it. Thank you for the time. It’s an honor and a privilege and it’s been my pleasure.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks. Thanks for watching. I could really feel Péllo bring out his powerful Type 8 style in our conversation. Earlier in his career, Péllo had been in roles and situations where he was encouraged to bring that powerful style out. It wasn’t until later, especially when he became a leadership mentor, that he appreciated the value of adopting a different approach. Maybe a quieter, more receptive approach when working with other types.

Matt Schlegel:

This really reminds me of an 8 moving along the path of integration to more Type 2-like behavior. It was great that Péllo was able to share that story. If you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs-up button, subscribe to the channel and get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, please leave them in the comments and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again.

Enneagram Type 8 leader Kim Kaselionis highlights the importance of becoming self-aware and how she used that knowledge to become a more effective communicator with her team.  The best leaders are highly self-aware, and Enneagram Type 8 leaders can elicit more creativity out of their teams by allowing more voices into the conversation.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool, and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’m speaking with Kim Kaselionis. Kim is passionate about helping entrepreneurs achieve the most successful outcomes. She’s managing director of Destined, a merger and acquisition advisory firm. And before that, she was CEO at a bank where she used the Enneagram extensively with her leadership team, and her talent acquisition team. She shares some great stories from the perspective of an Enneagram type 8 leader. And now for the conversation.

I’m excited to be speaking today with Kim Kaselionis. Kim is managing director of Destined, a merger and acquisition advisory firm where she guides entrepreneurs on their path to successful outcomes. She leads from experience. Before Destined, Kim was CEO at Circle Bank, where she turned around the bank, and made it into a category leader. She then sold the bank at a premium. She’s an advocate for entrepreneurs, and I’m eager to learn how she’s used the Enneagram as a leadership tool. Welcome, Kim.

Kim Kaselionis:                  Hey Matt, how are you?

Matt Schlegel:                   Great, great. Thank you so much for coming today.

Kim Kaselionis:                  Such a treat. Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:                   So I want to just start by asking how and when did you first discover the Enneagram?

Kim Kaselionis:                  So during my tenure at the bank, I was a member of Vistage, and it was through the Vistage group that I was introduced to this amazing management tool they call the Enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, very cool. And about when was that?

Kim Kaselionis:                  I want to say it was about 15 years ago.

Matt Schlegel:                   Okay.

Kim Kaselionis:                  I used it considerably in the last let’s call it five to seven years during my tenure at the bank.

Matt Schlegel:                   And so is that a normal part of Vistage to introduce the Enneagram, or was that just something that happened on an ad hoc basis?

Kim Kaselionis:                  It was just fortuitous. I think it just happened to be. Our chair was a big fan of the Enneagram, and it was something that she felt strongly about bringing to the group.

Matt Schlegel:                   Okay, great, great. Oh, that’s excellent. And so when you discovered the Enneagram, and you first started using it, what did you discover about yourself that you didn’t know before?

Kim Kaselionis:                  Well, I think the Enneagram is an amazing self-awareness tool that can help to put some context and framework behind why you are the way you are, how you interact with people of various personality types, right? So I think it’s a great kind of key, kind of an unlocking your best interpersonal skills because you just have some more awareness about who you are.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. I mean, that is one of the most important things about the Enneagram, right? It kind of lets you know how you are, and what you are doing in a way that I’d never seen any of the other tools that I’d used. They weren’t quite as effective as the Enneagram at doing that, kind of getting at what’s under the hood, and what’s going on.

Kim Kaselionis:                  Well, it explains a lot about why you may have some challenges, why you work better with some personality types versus others, right? And gives you, I want to say a roadmap in terms of how you can change your own interaction and behavior with others to get better outcomes.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. Okay, well, so then how did you use that then with your team at work?

Kim Kaselionis:                  I used it in two ways. One was with existing leadership team for which I had about nine people. I had them all take the Enneagram, and then I mapped out all of the scores onto a single sheet, and shared it with the group to have open the conversation about better communication amongst the senior leadership team. So it was a great kind of team building exercise that, again, not only for myself, but for the group to really have a better understanding of where they had some explanations of why they had friction with some of their other teammates, right? And some natural relationships with others. So it was really a great conversation starter to better understand how we can engage as a more effective team, so that was part one.

The other part was that as we continued to hire when we were looking for certain personality styles, and skill sets, then we would ask each of our candidates that we got serious about to actually take it to see because everybody knows you show up on an interview with game day, right? You come in with your game face, and a lot of the times you are not actually the person who I thought I hired. So it was a way for us to really drill down on, are we getting the right best fit for the position, and for the team itself, so we used it in two ways.

Matt Schlegel:                   So both as a communication tool and then as a hiring tool to align a style with a certain role because you had a sense of what style would be best in that role, and so you wanted to match that up.

Kim Kaselionis:                  Exactly, and, again, as a kind of an awareness, an overall awareness for the team to understand who we were bringing on board.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. Well, I mean, those are two excellent ways to use the tool, and they’re both very effective. One, just learning how to meet people where they’re at when you’re communicating with them because each one of the nine styles is going to come from a different perspective, and a different point of view. And if you don’t meet them, or meet somewhere in the middle, then you end up talking past each other, right?

Kim Kaselionis:                  Exactly, exactly. And I think the other part of that for the senior leadership perspective is it was a great way for me to determine where there might be some other management coaching, or skill building gaps that could be felt, right? For a particular Enneagram style, or another should they so desire just to, again, make that available to the senior leaders if they wanted to continue to enhance their own leadership skills.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. And then getting back to the other point about the hiring, it’s interesting how you called it you bring your game face. When we’re all in our most comfortable situation, our most confident situation then, actually, it’s a little harder to tell what your Enneagram style is. It’s when you’re under stress that you start to really reveal. Any Enneagram type when they’re comfortable can be any other type, but when you get stressed, you end up going back to your type, right? So it’s really interesting to see how people will behave in stress because that’s so revealing.

Kim Kaselionis:                  Exactly. And I do think that when you provide a candidate, or a team member to take the Enneagram as the manager, or the leader of the organization, I think you could get more insight into how that person is going to show up day in and day out. Yes, it’s true that as you’ve put in your book, each style, each Enneagram type has kind of a left and a right wing. So they can go either way, but I think it is really incumbent upon leaders to really understand the core personality of the people who you’re hiring, and to be able to make more informed decisions about kind of the culture that you’re building within the organization.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Kim Kaselionis:                  And you could use this tool to help you do that.

Matt Schlegel:                   Exactly. Yeah. So one of my favorite interview questions when I was a hiring manager was what is your problem-solving process? And I would just stop right there and then I would just let them explain it to me, and talk about revealing. It is one of the most revealing questions and it tells you because everybody wants to downplay their weaknesses. They want to build up their strengths. And so they end up just focusing on the things they’re strongest at. And so you get exactly what you’re going to get in the workplace when you hire them.

Kim Kaselionis:                  Very cool.

Matt Schlegel:                   So, well, great, thank you so much. Those are great ways to use the tool. So now that you have used it, and remind me, you’re coming from an Enneagram type 8 leadership position?

Kim Kaselionis:                  Correct.

Matt Schlegel:                   So what advice would you give to other leaders of your Enneagram type, Enneagram type 8?

Kim Kaselionis:                  Well, to my type 8 colleagues out there, as you probably are well aware, we are very dominant, and we can be construed, or people think of us as maybe being a little overbearing. So really to understand what you’re projecting out there to the world, to your team, to your employees, to your customers, to really understand your type so that when you’re interacting with other types that are not 8s, that you can massage, or finesse your interaction to get, again, better outcome, a better relationship, stronger, better understanding, and communication with people who are not of your type, because we have a tendency to just kind of roll over everybody else whose not strong like us. So, again, I think it’s a great way to just bring self-awareness so that you can have better relationships, right? And better communication styles with others who are not 8s.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. That is such a great point because as leaders grow in their leadership roles, right? You’re trying to encourage everybody to contribute. And you’re trying to encourage all the different diverse styles to be able to safely speak up, and contribute. And 8s do have to learn that they are so dominant that it can shut other voices down. And so by learning to tone that down, you bring out those other voices that help make everybody successful.

Kim Kaselionis:                  Right. We have a tendency sometimes to squash creativity, so, it’s a way to really, to your point, open up the conversation about ideas that are not ours, and a lot of amazing things after we can get over that little initial ego hit that somebody actually might have a better idea than us. It really helps to invite more creativity, and different ways of looking at the world, right? Not just your business environment, but really problem-solving where we might go with an idea that’s not ours. So, yes, I would just take a breath, I guess that’s what I would say to my other 8s is before you talk, just wait two seconds, let others speak.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Well, there’s the book Fast Thinking and Slow Thinking, and some people are fast thinkers, and some are slow thinkers. Both can have great ideas, but 8s are very fast thinkers because they’re using their intuition, and those ideas just come out so fast, and you need to kind of allow for the slow thinkers like me as a type six, allow for me to get my ideas out, too, if you want to have the whole set of possible ideas.

Kim Kaselionis:                  Yeah. I always say that the 8s, we kind of have no filter. And so sometimes when those words come out so quickly, we can’t always take them back, so, 8s sometimes we need a little bit of a filter.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. Well, thank you, Kim, so much for sharing all of your experiences with us today. And I feel like we just scratched the surface. I’d like to invite you to come back in the future, and continue the conversation if that’s okay with you?

Kim Kaselionis:                  I appreciate it. And then for anybody out there who hasn’t yet experienced the Enneagram, and would like to learn more, please connect with Matt because the Enneagram as we’ve talked about before is just an amazing human capital tool, right? And not only for yourself, but also for building teams and building better relationships. So, I applaud you, Matt, for the book. Love it. And I encourage you to continue to work and to share this knowledge with whoever you can reach.

Matt Schlegel:                   I’m trying. I’m going to do my best. So thank you, again, Kim. I really appreciate it.

Kim Kaselionis:                  My pleasure.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for watching. I really liked how Kim highlighted the power of the Enneagram as a tool for self-awareness, raising your self-awareness, and how as she raised her own self-awareness she became aware that she needed to adjust her communication style to more effectively communicate with her teammates. And as she went through that process, and made sure that all voices were heard that that actually resulted in more ideas being floated, and more creativity in the team. And so I just thought that was such a powerful story that she told.

So if you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel, and get notifications of future episodes. And if you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section, and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again.

Former pastor Roger Morimoto has been using the Enneagram for over 36 years. He first learned the Enneagram from Helen Palmer. He was so intrigued that he made it his life’s work to master the tool. Here he shares insights about how he used the Enneagram as a leadership tool from the perspective of Enneagram Type 8. He also describes his personal journey of growth.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’ll be speaking with Roger Morimoto. Roger is a former pastor who was introduced to the Enneagram 36 years ago by none other than Helen Palmer herself. Roger became passionate about the Enneagram and has woven it into both his professional and personal lives. Roger currently serves as the director of the Spiritual Life Foundation, and we collaborate to deliver Enneagram sessions and workshops for members. Roger shares his journey to becoming a self-aware Enneagram type 8 leader. So now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

I’m excited to be speaking today with Roger Morimoto. Roger served as pastor at Aldersgate United Methodist Church in Palo Alto for over 20 years. Before that, he served his pastor for 16 years at the United Japanese Christians Church in Clovis, California. Now, he’s the director for the Spiritual Life Foundation. Roger is my Enneagram mentor and we collaborate to deliver Enneagram workshops for the Spiritual Life Foundation. Thank you, Roger, for joining me today.

Roger Morimoto:

It’s great to be here, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

So just to start off, how and when did you first discover the Enneagram?

Roger Morimoto:

Yeah. My encounter with Enneagram started probably about 36 years ago when I was starting in pastoral ministry. We would have to go off to these continuing education events. But I tended not to go to the traditional ones that were often provided for pastors, but I had attended the Transpersonal Psychology Conference at Asilomar. During that conference, I had at the last minute joined a workshop where Helen Palmer was introducing her book, The Enneagram. That one little workshop just propelled me into the Enneagram in a way that I just… It has become really a lifetime pursuit, and then at the same time, a tool that has been very effective in many ways, both in my ministry and in the past, but also in my personal life and continue to work with it as I work with people in their own spiritual searching and through the Spiritual Life Foundation.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Wow. So you were introduced through Helen Palmer. That’s amazing.

Roger Morimoto:

Yeah. I’ll tell you, I felt like she, when she was in that workshop, that particular workshop, she didn’t have her panel. It was just her talking about the Enneagram because I think because of the time limitation that she had, she didn’t have a chance. It wasn’t one of her all day workshops or half day workshops. It was like a one hour workshop. But I gleaned enough out of there that it just got me going.

Matt Schlegel:

It sparked you for the rest of your life.

Roger Morimoto:

That’s right. That’s right.

Matt Schlegel:

That is amazing. So when you were first learning the Enneagram, what did you discover about yourself that you didn’t know or appreciate before?

Roger Morimoto:

I think the thing that spoke to me first was really helping me understand my sense of being as an 8. When I say that, I think it helped me understand where, as I looked at my life, where my burst of anger would come from, or on one hand, it helped me understand, on one hand I seemed to be fairly happy go lucky, and other times that I would just have this surge of energy, which was often accompanied with anger.

Roger Morimoto:

So it gave me some way to work with that or to frame that and put it into a different context than perhaps I had before. Then as I worked with that, it helped me also begin to frame that larger context. It was like, okay, this is how I am personally, but it’s like also it made me understand or at least create a new context of my family and then also my friends.

Matt Schlegel:

So you were saying how it helped you in both your ministerial world, but also in your personal and family life as well. One of the things that struck me was that appreciation for that burst of energy that you felt often accompanied with anger. It sounds like the Enneagram was helping you understand that relationship between your reaction and that feeling of anger.

Roger Morimoto:

Exactly. It helped frame it differently. I don’t think I could remember how I framed it in my life before. I probably didn’t even frame it. It was just what happened. It would be reactionary, but the Enneagram an opportunity to understand that what I thought was just strictly reactionary, I could now work with it in a sort of a different context or different understanding, and which really meant that I could work with it really for the first time. I could begin to process it as opposed to just being sort of, I don’t know, a slave to it or yeah, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. This is one of the most powerful things about the Enneagram is it really helps us understand our innate reactions to things and those reactions are perfectly natural. They’re perfectly fine, but it gives us a vocabulary to talk about it, understand it and process it in a new way, almost a more objective way that allows us to better even manage it.

Roger Morimoto:

Exactly, exactly.

Matt Schlegel:

So that’s great. So now, how did you and have you been using the Enneagram as a leadership and team tool?

Roger Morimoto:

Yeah. So I think in that context, that would really be up to the past 36 years of my ministry. I think one of the things that it did was it helped me understand that as I was working in groups, in this case, it would often be church administrative boards or committees that were working on projects, at the very basic level, it just helped me understand where people were coming from. In that process, yeah, I could begin to understand that, okay, this person may be overstepping some boundaries, but I understood why as opposed to sort of applying, and actually applying that, oh, they were a troublesome individual. It would be like, okay, I kind of understand where they’re coming from.

Roger Morimoto:

So sometimes I would be able to then, utilizing the understanding of the Enneagram, kind of guide that person in a different way to who process or to be a part of the group. I think in general, one of the things that people have said about my ministry was that they tended to see me as a good communicator, but I think a lot of that communication came out of the understanding of who I was speaking to, what were the dynamics within those individuals in terms of their processes so that we could work together on projects. For the most part, make it a little bit more constructive as opposed to just being an issue of conflict or differences of personality.

Matt Schlegel:

Right.

Roger Morimoto:

So I think that would be, at the most base level, that was what was most effective about the Enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. That is such a brilliant way to use it. Once you first start by knowing your own Enneagram type, but then as you learn the Enneagram, the other Enneagram types, and particularly the types of the people that you’re working with on your team, now you can speak with them and frame things in a way that is most meaningful and impactful to them and kind of really meet them where they are in their perspective. That is just amazing for improving communications with those team members.

Roger Morimoto:

Exactly. Then a part of that was always then also catching myself or trying to check my own reactions, because no matter how much we understand about the Enneagram, we still have that innate initial reaction to the triggers that people have set off in us. So it’s both looking at others and then also looking at myself as well.

Matt Schlegel:

Absolutely. Yeah, very well said. So, Roger, what advice would you give to other leaders of your Enneagram style, an Enneagram type 8?

Roger Morimoto:

For leaders that are 8s, it is this really this process of going back and forth. One, utilizing it in terms of looking at others, but also constantly checking back to about ourselves. It’s like are we just acting out also of our own Enneagram type? Are we utilizing our anger? Did somebody upset us that then it’s easy for us to quickly jump and sort of strike back or to try to make sure things are going to get done and we utilize that anger?

Roger Morimoto:

So we often will easily go to that and feel very justified to go to that place. I would say so it’s really a process of not only just understanding how others work so that we could move the process forward, but it’s also checking ourselves as well, because if we’re not checking ourselves, then in a sense then we could easily begin to move into a space where we’re almost just the bully in the room. When really perhaps there’s a better way we could move things forward than just forcing it and in that way.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. Yeah. For 8s, it’s such an effective tool. It serves 8s so well when they’re trying to get stuff done to go into that dynamic, but if you’re going to become even a more effective leader and be able to work in more various situations, sometimes you don’t want to use the hammer. Sometimes you want to pick up another tool.

Roger Morimoto:

Matt Schlegel:

But you have to have start with that realization.

Roger Morimoto:

Yes.

Matt Schlegel:

So that’s perfect, Roger. Thank you so much. I have learned so much from you over the years. I am so appreciative for our relationship and everything that you’ve taught me. I know you have so much to share about this, so I hope that you’ll be able to come back and share more in the future.

Roger Morimoto:

Sure. Thank you, Matt. The same goes with you as well. I meant, you have brought forward so many different ideas and context and your Teamwork 9.0 in terms of how to utilize the Enneagram it’s really… It’s just been a great journey and a lot of fun working with you.

Matt Schlegel:

We demonstrate the power of the Enneagram 8-6 partnership.

Roger Morimoto:

That’s right. That’s right.

Matt Schlegel:

It just works.

Roger Morimoto:

That’s right. It wouldn’t without the Enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

That’s right. Yeah, yeah. Operating at the higher level, but even the 8 and the 6 can work together. If they do, it’s a powerful combination.

Roger Morimoto:

Exactly. That’s great.

Matt Schlegel:

All right. Well, thank you again, Roger.

Roger Morimoto:

Sure thing, Matt. Okay.

Matt Schlegel:

Bye.

Roger Morimoto:

Bye now.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for watching. Roger’s been using the Enneagram for 36 years and that certainly gives him some unique perspective on how the Enneagram can be used as a leadership tool, especially for type 8 leaders. I love the way he grew his self-awareness of his instinctual reactions to situations, especially his reaction of burst of energy often associated with anger and that how he used that self-awareness to better control his reactions.

Matt Schlegel:

I was also impressed how he used the Enneagram as a communication tool and how he became so effective at that that people would remark, “Roger, you’re such a good communicator.” That really shows the power of the Enneagram as a rapport building and communication tool. So if you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel and get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, please leave them in the comments and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

World-renowned migraine pain and treatment expert, Dr. Sheena Aurora, shares her personal experiences of leadership growth using self-awareness of her dominant Enneagram dynamic—Enneagram Type 8. She shares how she uses this understanding to better lead her team.

Dr. Aurora makes great points about being a Type 8 leader. Type 8s have very strong intuition and often know exactly what to do. When working with teams, the intuitive Type 8s can already be many steps ahead of the group.  As a leader, Dr. Aurora shares how she’s learned to take the time and carefully explain everything to her team in a logical way. She describes this technique as tapping into the Type 7 dynamic, which I thought was very insightful. Also, I appreciated her perspective as a woman leader, and the importance and challenges of accepting and embracing the Type 8 leadership style as a woman in leadership positions.

[Video Transcript]

Matt :                                    Thanks for joining me in conversation with leaders, who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool, and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’ll be speaking with Dr. Sheena Aurora, a world-renowned expert in the treatment of migraine pain. She’s been using Enneagram as a leadership tool for over 10 years and shares insights into how she’s grown her leadership style based on her self-awareness of her Enneagram type. And now for the conversation.

I am delighted to be speaking today with Dr. Sheena Aurora. Dr. Aurora is a world-renowned expert in the field of neurology, with extensive experience in mechanisms for migraine related pain. Currently, she’s VP of medical affairs at Impel NeuroPharma, working towards migraine relief treatments. Sheena served in leadership roles in numerous organizations like Eli Lilly, Stanford University, Swedish Neuroscience Institute in Seattle.

And in fact, Sheena was voted as one of the best doctors in Seattle Magazine’s, Seattle’s Best Doctors in both 2010 and 2011. So what at an amazing list of accomplishments? So Sheena is also a close family friend, and we’ve had many conversations about the Enneagram. And she’s used her knowledge of the system in the workplace, and I’m eager to learn how the Enneagram has served her as a leadership tool. So Sheena, thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Thank you, Matt. Always a pleasure, and thanks for all the inspiration. And I thank you every day when I’m using the tools to try and be a better leader.

Matt :    That is fantastic. So I think that we did an Enneagram workshop together, probably the first time was at Stanford. So you’ve been using it for over 10 years now.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Yes. I think at Stanford it was more of an individual test, and I came to your workshop. Oh no. Actually, you did work with some of my colleagues there. That’s correct. That’s correct.

Matt :    Right. Right.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Yes.

Matt :    I remember we met with a group and we did a little thing, so that was really great.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          That’s correct.

Matt :    Well, let me start by asking you this. As you were on your Enneagram journey, what did you discover about yourself that you really didn’t know or appreciate before?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Thank you, Matt. So one is when I just looked at Enneagrams and was talking casually, I was labeled as a 3. And when I read about the 3, it sort of resonated. So I would encourage everyone who is really interested in this. As a neuroscientist, I’m also interested in the Enneagram because it makes more scientific intuitive sense compared to some of the other personality tools, et cetera, that it is.

I think it’s a wonderful framework. And I’m a huge fan of your book, and I try and use that on almost on a daily basis. So once I did the test and did a couple of workshops, I realized that I was an 8. And I think that just like other tools, I think that this gave me more of an insight to who I was naturally as a person. And perhaps some of the qualities of an 8, which I think everybody has some aspects in their Enneagram that works for them as a leader and some perhaps that they need to work on, which intuitively doesn’t come together and it’s certainly I’ve had a journey where as a physician and then in practice, I’ve been an individual contributor. And then when you take on leadership roles, you realize that those principles that make an 8 so strong as an individual contributor does not make you a good leader or a leader that I want to be.

So my leadership style is almost more of a servant leadership where I wanna remove obstacles. So for that, I had to adjust what was intuitive to me.

Matt :    Oh, that is so interesting. So you’re using the word intuitive, cause that’s your go-to style being in the intuitive center of the 8. And then just realizing that that doesn’t always work as a leader and that sometimes you have to bring more of the thinking part of it into it. And I’ve heard this from other 8 leaders as well like, you already know what to do, but you have to explain it to everybody else in order to get them to come along. So that’s where that 7 energy comes in, right?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Right.

Matt :    Because 7s are really good at explaining things. Oh, that is fantastic insight. Thank you. So now, how are you using the Enneagram in the workplace in terms of working with your team?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          So I think as an 8, like you so correctly pointed out, I have the intuition, I have the strategy piece. I’m a big person … The big idea person, but implementation or how to distill it down is not my strong suit. And sometimes I have to be reminded. And what I’ve made my team aware is I wanna be a better leader. These are the principles that I wanna operate on. Are these the principles that you believe that I should operate on?

So first, I get a buy-in and then I say to them, “Please help me get that,” because I’m okay to be reminded that not everybody’s on the same page as me. I remember when I was a lot younger and I didn’t know that, I would give people the headline, and all the thinking that had gone behind me bringing that to fruition, to me it was just not important.

But I do realize that now it’s not only important to get somewhere, but how you got there and how to bring everybody along, it works a lot better. Now, I can’t promise I do it every time, but I do try.

Matt :    Right. Right. Right. And I love how you’ve brought your whole team into the conversation and established that baseline for how to work together and then reminding people that you want to be held to a standard. And it’s okay for people to remind you that, “Hey, we’re living to this standards.” What a great conversation to have with your team. That’s fantastic.

So now having used the Enneagram for a while and reflecting on it, what advice would you give to other leaders of your same Enneagram type, Enneagram type 8?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          So I think that one is realize that you’re an 8 and embrace it. I think in my whole life, I’ve tried to get away from being an 8, but I think you embrace it. You realize the qualities that you intuitively have, and you try and … And although I do believe in honing on strengths, I also realized that sometimes when things that make your strengths not appear as strengths.

So for example, my sense of humor is a bit sarcastic and that doesn’t always bode well, particularly with my teenage children. And I would say that even as part of being a team leader, sarcasm is not embraced by all. So I would say use it to your advantage when you’re trying to give the cliff note version to someone, or when you’re talking to another 8, then it’s fine to use.

So I think doing workshops and doing team building events … I think what I love about the Enneagram so much is that it’s helped me figure out who I am. And having figured out who I am makes me a better leader.

Matt :    Well, that’s so well said and that’s so interesting how you point out that when you’re with other people of your type, it’s just so easy. Things just click, but not everybody is your same type, and other people have different perspectives and different sensitivities. And you are learning to essentially modulate some of your type A behaviors … Oh excuse me, type 8 behaviors when you are with other types.

And another thing that you brought up too, I think, which is really important that especially for women in leadership roles, oftentimes it is more challenging and there’s a lot of societal pressure that you mentioned. It’s like, I don’t want to be a type 8, but you are a type 8 and you should be allowed to be a type 8 and be the leader who you are.

And I think, like you said, just embrace it and then understand it and move forward with it. And that’s such great advice, Sheena. So thank you so much. Did you have a final thought you wanted to share?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          I just wanted to share that when you said other women, I now know a young woman who’s in her mid 20s who is in marketing. So I just asked her. I said, “What do you guys do these days for team building, just to know about your team?”. And she said, oh we do the Enneagram. I said, oh, I love the Enneagram. And so she looks at me very, and she says, what type are you? And I said, I’m an 8. And she says, I’m an 8 too. But I don’t like to say I’m an 8. And I said, Jess, embrace it because you’ve got such strong on skills, but I, I get that mad. I mean, I look at my daughter and she’s 14 and I don’t know what type she is we have to wait to what she evolves, but it’s confusing for women.

Like, do you lean in, do you not lean in, lean in doesn’t seem to be working? And I think that’s, that’s a personal struggle that all type 8 women go through because intuitively that’s our nature. We are big picture, big ideas, big strategists, we are the visionaries, we get it, we can gel things together and we want to go at a million miles an hour and we just want people to remove get out of our way and just let us go. And, and I think that that becomes really, really challenging. And so if you think of other ideas, I would love to know them. I am trying to put together my particular field is migraine or headache. I want to put some networking for women together to see how do we bring others along in this framework.

Matt :    Right. That’s, that’s so great. Well, thank you so much for sharing your, your thoughts and your insights with us today. Sheena I can’t tell you how much I’ve enjoyed our conversations and working with you on this and how much you’ve embraced it. And I hope that you’ll come back and share more insights in the future.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Absolutely Matt, it’s a pleasure and you’ve helped me so much. So it’s the feelings of mutual. Thanks.

Matt :    All right. Thank you so much. Bye now.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Bye.

Matt :    Thanks for watching. Sheena made so many great points about being a type 8 leader, type 8s have very strong intuition and often know exactly what to do. The problem is when working with teams, they might not be on same page. And Sheena describes that she’s learned to take the time and carefully explain everything to her team in a logical way. And she describes that as tapping into the type 7 dynamic, which I thought was very insightful. And then I also appreciated perspective as a woman leader and the importance and challenges of accepting and embracing being a type 8 leader in a organizational situation. So if you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel and get notifications of future episodes. And if you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again.