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Enneagram Type 8 Leadership Path of Growth — Interview with Roger Morimoto

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Former pastor Roger Morimoto has been using the Enneagram for over 36 years. He first learned the Enneagram from Helen Palmer. He was so intrigued that he made it his life’s work to master the tool. Here he shares insights about how he used the Enneagram as a leadership tool from the perspective of Enneagram Type 8. He also describes his personal journey of growth.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’ll be speaking with Roger Morimoto. Roger is a former pastor who was introduced to the Enneagram 36 years ago by none other than Helen Palmer herself. Roger became passionate about the Enneagram and has woven it into both his professional and personal lives. Roger currently serves as the director of the Spiritual Life Foundation, and we collaborate to deliver Enneagram sessions and workshops for members. Roger shares his journey to becoming a self-aware Enneagram type 8 leader. So now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

I’m excited to be speaking today with Roger Morimoto. Roger served as pastor at Aldersgate United Methodist Church in Palo Alto for over 20 years. Before that, he served his pastor for 16 years at the United Japanese Christians Church in Clovis, California. Now, he’s the director for the Spiritual Life Foundation. Roger is my Enneagram mentor and we collaborate to deliver Enneagram workshops for the Spiritual Life Foundation. Thank you, Roger, for joining me today.

Roger Morimoto:

It’s great to be here, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

So just to start off, how and when did you first discover the Enneagram?

Roger Morimoto:

Yeah. My encounter with Enneagram started probably about 36 years ago when I was starting in pastoral ministry. We would have to go off to these continuing education events. But I tended not to go to the traditional ones that were often provided for pastors, but I had attended the Transpersonal Psychology Conference at Asilomar. During that conference, I had at the last minute joined a workshop where Helen Palmer was introducing her book, The Enneagram. That one little workshop just propelled me into the Enneagram in a way that I just… It has become really a lifetime pursuit, and then at the same time, a tool that has been very effective in many ways, both in my ministry and in the past, but also in my personal life and continue to work with it as I work with people in their own spiritual searching and through the Spiritual Life Foundation.

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Wow. So you were introduced through Helen Palmer. That’s amazing.

Roger Morimoto:

Yeah. I’ll tell you, I felt like she, when she was in that workshop, that particular workshop, she didn’t have her panel. It was just her talking about the Enneagram because I think because of the time limitation that she had, she didn’t have a chance. It wasn’t one of her all day workshops or half day workshops. It was like a one hour workshop. But I gleaned enough out of there that it just got me going.

Matt Schlegel:

It sparked you for the rest of your life.

Roger Morimoto:

That’s right. That’s right.

Matt Schlegel:

That is amazing. So when you were first learning the Enneagram, what did you discover about yourself that you didn’t know or appreciate before?

Roger Morimoto:

I think the thing that spoke to me first was really helping me understand my sense of being as an 8. When I say that, I think it helped me understand where, as I looked at my life, where my burst of anger would come from, or on one hand, it helped me understand, on one hand I seemed to be fairly happy go lucky, and other times that I would just have this surge of energy, which was often accompanied with anger.

Roger Morimoto:

So it gave me some way to work with that or to frame that and put it into a different context than perhaps I had before. Then as I worked with that, it helped me also begin to frame that larger context. It was like, okay, this is how I am personally, but it’s like also it made me understand or at least create a new context of my family and then also my friends.

Matt Schlegel:

So you were saying how it helped you in both your ministerial world, but also in your personal and family life as well. One of the things that struck me was that appreciation for that burst of energy that you felt often accompanied with anger. It sounds like the Enneagram was helping you understand that relationship between your reaction and that feeling of anger.

Roger Morimoto:

Exactly. It helped frame it differently. I don’t think I could remember how I framed it in my life before. I probably didn’t even frame it. It was just what happened. It would be reactionary, but the Enneagram an opportunity to understand that what I thought was just strictly reactionary, I could now work with it in a sort of a different context or different understanding, and which really meant that I could work with it really for the first time. I could begin to process it as opposed to just being sort of, I don’t know, a slave to it or yeah, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. This is one of the most powerful things about the Enneagram is it really helps us understand our innate reactions to things and those reactions are perfectly natural. They’re perfectly fine, but it gives us a vocabulary to talk about it, understand it and process it in a new way, almost a more objective way that allows us to better even manage it.

Roger Morimoto:

Exactly, exactly.

Matt Schlegel:

So that’s great. So now, how did you and have you been using the Enneagram as a leadership and team tool?

Roger Morimoto:

Yeah. So I think in that context, that would really be up to the past 36 years of my ministry. I think one of the things that it did was it helped me understand that as I was working in groups, in this case, it would often be church administrative boards or committees that were working on projects, at the very basic level, it just helped me understand where people were coming from. In that process, yeah, I could begin to understand that, okay, this person may be overstepping some boundaries, but I understood why as opposed to sort of applying, and actually applying that, oh, they were a troublesome individual. It would be like, okay, I kind of understand where they’re coming from.

Roger Morimoto:

So sometimes I would be able to then, utilizing the understanding of the Enneagram, kind of guide that person in a different way to who process or to be a part of the group. I think in general, one of the things that people have said about my ministry was that they tended to see me as a good communicator, but I think a lot of that communication came out of the understanding of who I was speaking to, what were the dynamics within those individuals in terms of their processes so that we could work together on projects. For the most part, make it a little bit more constructive as opposed to just being an issue of conflict or differences of personality.

Matt Schlegel:

Right.

Roger Morimoto:

So I think that would be, at the most base level, that was what was most effective about the Enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. That is such a brilliant way to use it. Once you first start by knowing your own Enneagram type, but then as you learn the Enneagram, the other Enneagram types, and particularly the types of the people that you’re working with on your team, now you can speak with them and frame things in a way that is most meaningful and impactful to them and kind of really meet them where they are in their perspective. That is just amazing for improving communications with those team members.

Roger Morimoto:

Exactly. Then a part of that was always then also catching myself or trying to check my own reactions, because no matter how much we understand about the Enneagram, we still have that innate initial reaction to the triggers that people have set off in us. So it’s both looking at others and then also looking at myself as well.

Matt Schlegel:

Absolutely. Yeah, very well said. So, Roger, what advice would you give to other leaders of your Enneagram style, an Enneagram type 8?

Roger Morimoto:

For leaders that are 8s, it is this really this process of going back and forth. One, utilizing it in terms of looking at others, but also constantly checking back to about ourselves. It’s like are we just acting out also of our own Enneagram type? Are we utilizing our anger? Did somebody upset us that then it’s easy for us to quickly jump and sort of strike back or to try to make sure things are going to get done and we utilize that anger?

Roger Morimoto:

So we often will easily go to that and feel very justified to go to that place. I would say so it’s really a process of not only just understanding how others work so that we could move the process forward, but it’s also checking ourselves as well, because if we’re not checking ourselves, then in a sense then we could easily begin to move into a space where we’re almost just the bully in the room. When really perhaps there’s a better way we could move things forward than just forcing it and in that way.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. Yeah. For 8s, it’s such an effective tool. It serves 8s so well when they’re trying to get stuff done to go into that dynamic, but if you’re going to become even a more effective leader and be able to work in more various situations, sometimes you don’t want to use the hammer. Sometimes you want to pick up another tool.

Roger Morimoto:

Matt Schlegel:

But you have to have start with that realization.

Roger Morimoto:

Yes.

Matt Schlegel:

So that’s perfect, Roger. Thank you so much. I have learned so much from you over the years. I am so appreciative for our relationship and everything that you’ve taught me. I know you have so much to share about this, so I hope that you’ll be able to come back and share more in the future.

Roger Morimoto:

Sure. Thank you, Matt. The same goes with you as well. I meant, you have brought forward so many different ideas and context and your Teamwork 9.0 in terms of how to utilize the Enneagram it’s really… It’s just been a great journey and a lot of fun working with you.

Matt Schlegel:

We demonstrate the power of the Enneagram 8-6 partnership.

Roger Morimoto:

That’s right. That’s right.

Matt Schlegel:

It just works.

Roger Morimoto:

That’s right. It wouldn’t without the Enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

That’s right. Yeah, yeah. Operating at the higher level, but even the 8 and the 6 can work together. If they do, it’s a powerful combination.

Roger Morimoto:

Exactly. That’s great.

Matt Schlegel:

All right. Well, thank you again, Roger.

Roger Morimoto:

Sure thing, Matt. Okay.

Matt Schlegel:

Bye.

Roger Morimoto:

Bye now.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for watching. Roger’s been using the Enneagram for 36 years and that certainly gives him some unique perspective on how the Enneagram can be used as a leadership tool, especially for type 8 leaders. I love the way he grew his self-awareness of his instinctual reactions to situations, especially his reaction of burst of energy often associated with anger and that how he used that self-awareness to better control his reactions.

Matt Schlegel:

I was also impressed how he used the Enneagram as a communication tool and how he became so effective at that that people would remark, “Roger, you’re such a good communicator.” That really shows the power of the Enneagram as a rapport building and communication tool. So if you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel and get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, please leave them in the comments and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

Online Workshop: Enneagram and Health – Wed. Nov. 17

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Join us Wednesday, November 17 to learn from others and to share your approach to health maintenance from your Enneagram type’s perspective.

Contact matt@evolutionaryteams.com for Zoom link.

Wednesday, November 17, 7:30-9:00 PM (Pacific Time)

 Enneagram and Health

What is your approach to diet and nutrition—slow and steady, or feast and fast? What is your approach to exercise—strength training, or high intensity, or aerobic? How important is sleep and rest? What about meditation and recreation? In this workshop, we examine how each Enneagram type approaches wellness—physical and mental—learning from each other to optimize our own health, happiness and well-being.

Contact matt@evolutionaryteams.com for Zoom link.

We are taking a break in December and picking up the conversation in the new year.  Mark your calendar for January’s study group session:

Wednesday, January 19, 7:30-9:00 PM (Pacific Time)

Enneagram and Climate Change

Humanity is in a bit of a pickle.  Carbon dioxide levels are higher now than they have ever been since homo sapiens emerged on the planet some 500,000 years ago.  How will people respond to this major change in our environment?  The Enneagram may provide some clues.  In this session we will check in to see how individuals of each Enneagram type are responding. Also, we will explore the Enneagram-based teamwork principles from the best-selling book Teamwork 9.0 which can give us insights into how humanity might come together to solve our collective climate crisis.

Enneagram Type 5 Creativity Style — Interview with James Yamasaki

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Each Enneagram type brings a distinct flavor to creativity.  Professional illustrator James Yamasaki shares how he came up with the ideas for the number illustrations in the book Teamwork 9.0.  I wanted Jimmy to imbue meaning into the numbers while avoiding any stereotypical associations with human styles often portrayed in Enneagram type illustrations of people.   Jimmy did a masterful job, and his process gives us a sneak peak into the mind of a creative Enneagram Type 5. Learn about his color choice, the types of lines he used, and the inspiration for the distinctive features.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   I’d like to welcome James Yamasaki, also known as Jimmy. Jimmy’s a professional illustrator. His work appears in Children’s Highlights and National Geographic’s Kids among other publications. Also, he teaches drawing at the Academy of Art University in San Francisco. And you’re my cousin-in-law, and it’s great to have such a talent in the family. And I am delighted that we were able to partner on the book project, and I often find myself admiring what a fantastic job you did imbuing meaning in to the numbers that represent the Enneagram types and the steps in the Enneagram change management problem solving process. So I want to thank you so much for taking the time today to discuss your creative process in coming up with those ideas for the numbers and the illustrations.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Sure.

Matt Schlegel:                   But before we get started, could you remind me of how you were introduced to the Enneagram, and when was that and what was that like for you?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              I’m pretty sure you introduced me to the Enneagram, and I’m thinking it must have been in the early 2000s, maybe. Or maybe before that, but I guess I was curious about understanding myself and other people a little bit better. And I think as you described it, it kind of opened my eyes to the different sort of mindset or ways to thinking that people have, and I mean, it sounds a little naïve, but I think maybe I didn’t consider that as much before or maybe I sort of projected my own thinking onto other people and then sort of tried to understand things that way. I feel like it helped me understand others, and it helped me understand myself.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, that’s fantastic. That is one of the great ways to use the Enneagram, for sure. Did you find that you were thinking about different Enneagram styles when you were drawing, making illustrations, especially of people?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Before the project we did together?

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, well, just in general because you put so much personality into your drawings. I’m just wondering, do you actually think about, “Oh, this is a type eight or a type seven,” when you’re doing that?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah, I think. Maybe not all the time, but I definitely… Because I think some of the numbers to me, my understanding of them, at least in my head, is a little more clear, and I think some numbers, they seem more subtle or a little harder to really grasp. So for example, like an eight, I feel like I probably have thought of maybe someone that was expressing some emotion or anger or something and I kind of maybe thought of that number. Yeah, some of the other ones, I think it’s a little harder to… Or it will be more subtle when you show that in a character, maybe like the three or something. I feel like it’s a little difficult.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah. But I have thought of it a little bit, I think.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah. Well, definitely you thought of it when you were making the numbers, that’s for sure. Well, let’s go through the numbers, and I just like to hear your thoughts about how you came up with the ideas for each one and that process. So I’m going to just first of all show the number one, and Jimmy, you can’t see this, but…

Jimmy Yamasaki:              I’m looking at the wheel on my own computer, so I can see.

Matt Schlegel:                   Okay. So why don’t you tell us what your inspiration for the number one was?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              I think, trying to remember back when I did it. I think I was thinking of the perfectionism side to the one, and I think initially, I just made something that was very perfect, and then I think we discussed it, and you said that it would be better if there was a little chip in it or a little imperfection to kind of show that aspect of that Enneagram type. So I thought something that’s perfect to be a diamond or a crystal, and then I guess along those lines, also just in terms of the whole group, I tried to think of different colors for each one. And I thought because I thought of a crystal or a diamond, like a blue-ish color would work well with that. And I can’t remember if I thought about anything else.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Yeah. I think one of the things… So you really brought out that perfectionism in the one, and one of the things that we wanted to try to do also with that type one dynamic is to not only focus on the perfectionism but also focus on the fact that they’re usually the first to see something wrong as well. And so then you added that little chink in the one. It’s like, “Oh, hey! This isn’t perfect! It’s not right! We need to fix this!”

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. I think this is… It’s a great illustration, and one of the other things we were trying to do is to not put any references to necessarily people in the numbers, right? A lot of illustrations, they use people, and that can get complicated because we’re just trying to illustrate a dynamic independent of people themselves, of the individuals.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah. And I don’t think, maybe it didn’t work for all of them, but just in terms of marks or lines, I think some of them I tried to distinguish straighter edges and sharper corners and things to apply to certain numbers. Some of them, I feel like, doesn’t totally work, but with the one, I think because of the perfectionism, I kind of thought of it as more rigid. And as we go through the other ones, excuse me, I think some, more organic or curving lines worked better with the sort of emotions or feelings that I associated with those or from discussions we’ve had or descriptions that you’ve given me.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. Well, that’s a great lead-in for type two, or step two. So go ahead and describe how you came up with this one. This one just blows my mind how perfect it is.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah. I kind of don’t remember if we were discussing it, but like I was just saying, the two has a lot of feeling, I think. I think it’s a number that wants acknowledgement for things that they’re doing. So there’s this interconnectedness. So I guess is just associated kind of curving, organic lines with a plant or something or vegetation and then how it kind of branches out to all the other numbers. I think that’s how… My memory’s a little foggy. I can’t remember if we kind of discussed that beforehand, or if I did a few sketches and that was one of the ideas, but yeah. I think the sort of emotional side of that number translated to more organic quality in the shapes.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. Yeah, I don’t remember really having a conversation with you about this one. I think this one really, your inspiration came up with this, and that’s fantastic. It’s like the tangled web we weave, right?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   And it’s so funny, too, because twos do feel a connection with every type. A lot of types will kind of prefer some types over others, and twos pretty consistently say that, “No, I have friends will all types. I like everybody.” And that’s the, in step two of problem solving, that is the crucial step. It’s bringing everybody together and including everybody and creating those connections, especially emotional connections with wanting to solve whatever problem was identified in step one. So the two has exactly this dynamic of being connected to everybody and being able to bring them in. So it’s just perfect, Jimmy.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Oh, thanks.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, let’s then go on to the three, and this is also fantastic. You want to tell us about this one?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              For the three, I think maybe of the whole Enneagram, the three is one that I have a little trouble with. I feel like I need to read more about it in order to get a good grasp on it, but I think we talked about the three as sort of coming up with ideas or good at coming up with an idea. So that just made me think of a light bulb. This is an example where maybe the way the three sort of presents themselves to others, in my mind, when I’m looking at it, maybe it would be a little more rigid or something or pristine.

Matt Schlegel:                   Pristine, yeah.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              So that’s sort of where the example I was giving earlier where straight edges and curved edges for some of them. Maybe when I’m looking at this one now, I can kind of see how maybe the three could be a little more geometric in terms of the way they present themselves, but I think we were kind of emphasizing the conceptual side of the three, how they can come up with ideas without self-censoring or kind of getting in their own way. They are really good at generating ideas. Yeah, so that’s why I did sort of that light bulb.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. No, it’s perfect. And you do get the straight lines coming out. That’s that projection of the straight line, but also, the three is at the core of the emotion center. So I think you essentially capture both here, right? You captured the straight lines, which is that kind of external façade, but then you also capture the curves of being in that emotion center where the three occupies. So yeah, you may have just inadvertently hit on perfect illustration here. So I guess in the problem solving, we had probably talked about that and how step three in problem solving is the ideation step, the step where you just want to create as many ideas as possible. I think this perfectly captures this idea. So that’s fantastic.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Thanks.

Matt Schlegel:                   All right. Let’s go on to then the next one, which is the four, another fantastic and definitely no straight liens here.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   This is the least linear of all types.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah. So I think I kind of made the contours of it kind of wavy and jagged. I think this is one where we discussed putting some elements inside of the number. So I tried to keep the overall hue or color sort a purple-ish, just because in my mind, it kind of relates to feelings or something in the color wheel. But then within that, I put a bunch of different things. I think there’s a cloud with lightening, and there’s hearts and there’s a wave. So just trying to show the full range of feelings that the four can have. Yeah. I feel like this one, in the beginning, I feel like I had a pretty good idea of what I wanted for this one just because I think I had an okay sense of what the four is like. So I think the four is associated with artists sometimes. So I was thinking of something that, I don’t know, evokes a painting or art or something.

Matt Schlegel:                   Nice. Nice. Well, yeah, and the type four is the internal feelings type, and they’re essentially feeling all feelings all the time. They’re feeling everything all the time, and I think this really captures that. You’ve put all of these different feelings inside of the number so that the four is feeling all these different things, and all those feelings are always there, and they’re feeling them all the time.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   So this is perfect. This is perfect. And then, from the problem solving point of view, when somebody has an idea in step three, then the first thing that happens is that you have some emotional reaction to that. It’s going to be, “Oh, that idea is great,” or, “Oh, that idea is terrible.” And that instantaneous emotional reaction, that is the energy of the four. It’s like, which one of those feeling that’s rolling around is going to pop out when somebody puts an idea out? Yeah, so this is perfect. I love it. I love it.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Thanks.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. All right. So one other thing is how conscientious you were about the color selection, and I’ve tried to… When I, in subsequent work that I’ve done, I’ve tried to use your color palette when I’m talking about each one of these steps in problem solving or Enneagram types because I think it really helps to bring out and illicit that kind of visceral reaction of what’s going on with the number. Yeah, that’s just another dimension to what you did here.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Oh, thanks. Yeah, I think not only the shape I wanted each one to be distinct, but each one have a different color so that they’re totally separate.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Yeah, yeah, awesome. All right. Now let’s go on to one of our favorites. Now, full disclosure, Jimmy, you’re a type five right?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              I’m pretty sure. I mean, that’s one thing, sometimes Sofia, my wife, and I talk about things, about the Enneagram and about how we are processing something. And there are times when I start to think, “Oh, am I a six, maybe?” But I think overall, I feel like I’m probably a five. It seems like most of the points that are listed under the five apply to me.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              So yeah. So when I was coming up with this one, I guess I was thinking about the kind of research and collecting and, I don’t know, gathering of information that the five does. I kind of looked at myself, I have a lot of books that I’ve just collected. So I thought a book would be a good shape. And then I can’t remember if it says it in the description of the five, but I made the five number kind of like a digital clock type of thing because it seems a little colder, not as warm or emotional contrasted with the four. And then the blue is kind of along those lines, a little bit more cool, detached. Yeah, so that’s how I came up with that.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, I know. That’s brilliant. I love it. And the book is closed, too. It’s not open. It’s closed.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              It should have a clasp on it with a lock.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right! You can’t find out what’s inside my book. Yeah, that’s great. And I think that perfectly captures both the personality dynamic of the five and then also that step in problem solving where it is where you do the research. You get out the books. You make sure that those solutions that pass through the emotional gauntlet of step four, it’s kind of like an emotional filter, you take the positive ideas that pass through step four, and they come into step five, and then you want to do a rigorous analysis of those, and that’s where you pull out the books and you analyze them closely. Yeah, this is fantastic. All right. Now we’re going to get to one of my favorite types, which is the six.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              And this is one that I remember having trouble with. I feel like you came up with the idea of a crystal ball type of thing, kind of I guess showing the six’s ability to foresee problems or look into the future kind of. I think in the beginning, I struggled with it because I know the six deals a lot with fear and whether it’s deliberately facing the fear or avoiding. So I guess some of the green and the kind of swirling shapes are kind of like a spooky kind of imagery, but I think the main shape, the crystal ball is focusing on the thinking of the future and always planning ahead. I guess the number, I take kind of along the lines of the spooky thing. It’s more like a gothic kind of calligraphy. Yeah, I think that’s how I figured that one out.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. No, that’s perfect. And I hadn’t connected the dots on the color, but we’re actually coming into Halloween right now as we talk about this, and I’m thinking about, that’s a scary color that’s often used in spooky stuff is that scary green, right?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. And the swirling mist and cob-webby type of stuff that’s in there. Yeah, and the gothic number, very spooky stuff. So you capture the fear, but then you also capture that six dynamic of just thinking about the future, just constantly processing, “What if this is going to happen? What if this happens? What if this happens?” It’s like I’m a six, so that’s kind of the way my brain works. It’s constantly simulating future outcomes to see where the danger might be so that we can avoid it. And then in problem solving, step six represents the planning step where you’re thinking about, “Okay, now that we have a validated idea that has gone through step five, now we need to take that idea and get it to the goal and solve the problem.” So what’s the plan? How do you build a plan around getting us from A to B, that gets us from the idea actually to the realization of that idea that solves the problem? And that’s where that six dynamic can really come into play. So I think that’s perfect, Jimmy. I love it.

All right. So now, let’s switch over to the seven. Yeah.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              The seven, I feel like probably of the nine numbers, three, seven and nine were probably the hardest for me… Or I didn’t have a clear idea of what should represent it for those numbers. But with the seven, I guess I thought about they’re the number that wants experiences and… Is that right? They want to kind of go out in the world and take a lot of stuff in. So I just made the number, I think I looked at sort of a circus font type of imagery where it’s very ornate. In this way, I fee like maybe the connection maybe wasn’t totally clear, but in my mind, it seemed like the seven is a little more flamboyant or something, or kind of presents itself more freely. I’m not sure, so kind of contrasted with the five which is very just boring and flat.

And then I kind of added these lines around it indicating maybe movement because I’m thinking the seven is always on the go and trying to do stuff. You can kind of maybe clarify some of those aspects of the seven, I think.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I saw in this is that it’s exciting. It’s just like, “Oh, that looks like excitement. It looks like I want to engage with you. So those were some of the things that I took away. And I agree with you. When I was thinking about the seven, it is one of the harder ones to put into a picture, and when I saw this, I’m like, “Oh, yeah. This is perfect.”

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Oh, good.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, because it’s really trying to show… If you’re trying to show a number in the best possible light, which is what you’re doing in step seven of problem solving. You now put this plan together, and now you want to take it back to the broader set of stakeholders and show we have a plan now that can get us from A to B that will solve your problem. And you want to get that out and get all the stakeholders excited about moving forward and doing it and solving the problem. So that captures, the lines capture that motion of, “We’re going to move forward, we’re going to do this. Come on. It’s going to be great!” And even the number itself, it’s almost like an arrow. It almost looks like an arrow kind of shooting out and moving forward. Let’s go forward. Yeah. I thought it was great. What was your idea on the color here?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              I think along the lines of sort ornate font, something that was just bright and cheery, I guess in my mind positive feeling. So I wanted to… It looks very similar to the three, but I guess I kind of pushed it to orange a little bit so that… I don’t know if we have a full, I think maybe the rainbow spectrum has fewer colors. So you have add a few in between to kind of fill out or make the spectrum full. Yeah, I think I was just kind of thinking more of positivity or maybe a little bit of [showinenss 00:30:39]. I’m not sure if that’s a word.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Well, and it’s interesting because both the seven and three can share those qualities. And then you actually captured that in the colors as well because they’re a little bit different, but they can be very similar, too.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              I got lucky.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, no. It was great. That’s why whenever I go back and look at the numbers, I’m like, “It’s just brilliant the way this all came together.” All right. Well, let’s go on to the eight now. This one, probably, this one is outstanding. It’s like, “Oh, yeah. Nailed it.”

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah. I just tried to think of something bold and strong, and I made it larger than the other numbers. Of course, red is a bold color. And just to kind of add to the… I guess I kind of think of the eight as kind of almost like projecting itself out to others. So I kind of made these clouds or maybe steam or something bursting from behind it. Yeah, and again, for this, I tried to use straighter lines to make it real solid. Yeah. I made a little perspective like you’re looking up at it.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, when I saw the clouds, that’s interesting that that’s what you were thinking in the clouds because when I saw the clouds around it, I thought of stamping a foot down.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Oh, as if it’s coming down.

Matt Schlegel:                   Boom. Yeah. Boom. And there’s just this cloud coming up around it. Yeah, yeah. It totally captures that dynamic. And it’s like on a construction site, a busy construction site where everybody’s working hard and getting stuff done, and there’s going to be just a lot of dust kind of floating around.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   This is the… Step eight is the implementation step. It’s the step where you get stuff done. And of course, there’s going to be a lot of dust raised when you’re working hard. So I thought that was perfect. That was perfect.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Okay.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Yeah. And the red, also, just great combination all the way around. Totally captured that. So let’s then go to step nine. And what were thinking when you put this one together?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah. I think the nine was another one I struggled with a little bit. Kind of like the seven. I know that the nine wants to get along with everyone, I think, is that right? So I was thinking initially something that was maybe kind of softer or rounder in shape, kind of like “I mean you no harm” sort of feeling. But I think we discussed it, and I think maybe you came up with the idea of adding the hands as if it’s going to give a hug. And then also, contrasted with the eight, I made it a little smaller because I think outwardly to the world, maybe the nine doesn’t sort of make its presence felt as much. It’s a little bit quieter. And then the color, kind of along those lines, a little more cool and not as bright, I guess.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love those words. I don’t mean you any harm. It’s so funny. After step eight, where everybody buckles down and gets stuff done, then inevitably in that transformation, there will be some need to go back in and harmonize the solution with everybody, and there can be some unintended consequences whenever you take an action. And step nine is when you go in and say, “Hey, look it. We did not mean you any harm. It wasn’t our intention. Our intention was to solve the problem.” So if anything bad happened to you, that was not our intent. So let’s look, first of all, is the problem solved for you? Great. And if there’s a new problem that’s come about, then let me know. Tell me because we want you to feel okay, too!

Yeah, and that illustration I think totally captures that dynamic. It’s just perfect the way. It’s very welcoming and kind of draws you in for a conversation. Yeah, that’s fantastic. It’s not so much that they want to be liked. They just want everybody to get along. They just want everybody to get along. They just want to minimize the conflicts. They don’t want anybody to be out of sorts. So that’s kind of what’s driving them, which is a little bit different than the seven who actually does want to be liked more and the twos as well.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, it’s a little bit different. But I think this totally captures that dynamic.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              And is the nine maybe emotionally, can they be a little distant? Because I think when I’m looking at it now, I made it look a little metallic. So I think that was in reference to maybe emotionally not as organic feeling as the two.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. No, I think that’s exactly right. I think the nine is not looking out for that emotional connection. They just really want the world to be at peace. So they can appreciate emotions because that’s one of the things that they use, but that’s just one of the tools to get people to be at peace. And that’s why the nine is at the very top of the Enneagram because they can essentially see both sides of everything. They can see the emotional side. They can see the thoughtful side. They’re in the center of the anger. They can understand and appreciate the anger. They have the complete preview of everything. So I think it is… They are well-rounded, and I think by illustrating this with roundedness really captures that, definitely.

Well, that’s awesome, Jimmy. Again, just such a great job with the illustrations.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Thanks.

Matt Schlegel:                   Do you have any final thoughts on it? What was it like, I guess, for the project? Was it a fun project for you? Was it a hard project for you?

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Yeah. No, thanks again for asking me to help you out with this. Yeah, I really enjoyed it because I think it was a challenge trying to put the Enneagram into kind of a more abstract representation, and it was a fun challenge to kind of think of what would work best for each one and how they would all work together. So yeah, it was great.

Matt Schlegel:                   Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you again for partnering with me in the project. It was such a delight working with you, and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate just how well everything turned out. So thanks again, Jimmy.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              No, thank you.

Matt Schlegel:                   All right. And I really enjoyed the conversation today and getting your insights. And in the future, I hope you’d consider coming back, and we can have another conversation about some of the different aspects of the Enneagram and how you may be using them in your work.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Sure. That sounds great.

Matt Schlegel:                   Awesome. All right. Thanks again.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Okay.

Matt Schlegel:                   Bye.

Jimmy Yamasaki:              Bye.

 

Enneagram Type 8 Leadership Path of Growth — Interview with Dr. Sheena Aurora

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World-renowned migraine pain and treatment expert, Dr. Sheena Aurora, shares her personal experiences of leadership growth using self-awareness of her dominant Enneagram dynamic—Enneagram Type 8. She shares how she uses this understanding to better lead her team.

Dr. Aurora makes great points about being a Type 8 leader. Type 8s have very strong intuition and often know exactly what to do. When working with teams, the intuitive Type 8s can already be many steps ahead of the group.  As a leader, Dr. Aurora shares how she’s learned to take the time and carefully explain everything to her team in a logical way. She describes this technique as tapping into the Type 7 dynamic, which I thought was very insightful. Also, I appreciated her perspective as a woman leader, and the importance and challenges of accepting and embracing the Type 8 leadership style as a woman in leadership positions.

[Video Transcript]

Matt :                                    Thanks for joining me in conversation with leaders, who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool, and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’ll be speaking with Dr. Sheena Aurora, a world-renowned expert in the treatment of migraine pain. She’s been using Enneagram as a leadership tool for over 10 years and shares insights into how she’s grown her leadership style based on her self-awareness of her Enneagram type. And now for the conversation.

I am delighted to be speaking today with Dr. Sheena Aurora. Dr. Aurora is a world-renowned expert in the field of neurology, with extensive experience in mechanisms for migraine related pain. Currently, she’s VP of medical affairs at Impel NeuroPharma, working towards migraine relief treatments. Sheena served in leadership roles in numerous organizations like Eli Lilly, Stanford University, Swedish Neuroscience Institute in Seattle.

And in fact, Sheena was voted as one of the best doctors in Seattle Magazine’s, Seattle’s Best Doctors in both 2010 and 2011. So what at an amazing list of accomplishments? So Sheena is also a close family friend, and we’ve had many conversations about the Enneagram. And she’s used her knowledge of the system in the workplace, and I’m eager to learn how the Enneagram has served her as a leadership tool. So Sheena, thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Thank you, Matt. Always a pleasure, and thanks for all the inspiration. And I thank you every day when I’m using the tools to try and be a better leader.

Matt :    That is fantastic. So I think that we did an Enneagram workshop together, probably the first time was at Stanford. So you’ve been using it for over 10 years now.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Yes. I think at Stanford it was more of an individual test, and I came to your workshop. Oh no. Actually, you did work with some of my colleagues there. That’s correct. That’s correct.

Matt :    Right. Right.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Yes.

Matt :    I remember we met with a group and we did a little thing, so that was really great.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          That’s correct.

Matt :    Well, let me start by asking you this. As you were on your Enneagram journey, what did you discover about yourself that you really didn’t know or appreciate before?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Thank you, Matt. So one is when I just looked at Enneagrams and was talking casually, I was labeled as a 3. And when I read about the 3, it sort of resonated. So I would encourage everyone who is really interested in this. As a neuroscientist, I’m also interested in the Enneagram because it makes more scientific intuitive sense compared to some of the other personality tools, et cetera, that it is.

I think it’s a wonderful framework. And I’m a huge fan of your book, and I try and use that on almost on a daily basis. So once I did the test and did a couple of workshops, I realized that I was an 8. And I think that just like other tools, I think that this gave me more of an insight to who I was naturally as a person. And perhaps some of the qualities of an 8, which I think everybody has some aspects in their Enneagram that works for them as a leader and some perhaps that they need to work on, which intuitively doesn’t come together and it’s certainly I’ve had a journey where as a physician and then in practice, I’ve been an individual contributor. And then when you take on leadership roles, you realize that those principles that make an 8 so strong as an individual contributor does not make you a good leader or a leader that I want to be.

So my leadership style is almost more of a servant leadership where I wanna remove obstacles. So for that, I had to adjust what was intuitive to me.

Matt :    Oh, that is so interesting. So you’re using the word intuitive, cause that’s your go-to style being in the intuitive center of the 8. And then just realizing that that doesn’t always work as a leader and that sometimes you have to bring more of the thinking part of it into it. And I’ve heard this from other 8 leaders as well like, you already know what to do, but you have to explain it to everybody else in order to get them to come along. So that’s where that 7 energy comes in, right?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Right.

Matt :    Because 7s are really good at explaining things. Oh, that is fantastic insight. Thank you. So now, how are you using the Enneagram in the workplace in terms of working with your team?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          So I think as an 8, like you so correctly pointed out, I have the intuition, I have the strategy piece. I’m a big person … The big idea person, but implementation or how to distill it down is not my strong suit. And sometimes I have to be reminded. And what I’ve made my team aware is I wanna be a better leader. These are the principles that I wanna operate on. Are these the principles that you believe that I should operate on?

So first, I get a buy-in and then I say to them, “Please help me get that,” because I’m okay to be reminded that not everybody’s on the same page as me. I remember when I was a lot younger and I didn’t know that, I would give people the headline, and all the thinking that had gone behind me bringing that to fruition, to me it was just not important.

But I do realize that now it’s not only important to get somewhere, but how you got there and how to bring everybody along, it works a lot better. Now, I can’t promise I do it every time, but I do try.

Matt :    Right. Right. Right. And I love how you’ve brought your whole team into the conversation and established that baseline for how to work together and then reminding people that you want to be held to a standard. And it’s okay for people to remind you that, “Hey, we’re living to this standards.” What a great conversation to have with your team. That’s fantastic.

So now having used the Enneagram for a while and reflecting on it, what advice would you give to other leaders of your same Enneagram type, Enneagram type 8?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          So I think that one is realize that you’re an 8 and embrace it. I think in my whole life, I’ve tried to get away from being an 8, but I think you embrace it. You realize the qualities that you intuitively have, and you try and … And although I do believe in honing on strengths, I also realized that sometimes when things that make your strengths not appear as strengths.

So for example, my sense of humor is a bit sarcastic and that doesn’t always bode well, particularly with my teenage children. And I would say that even as part of being a team leader, sarcasm is not embraced by all. So I would say use it to your advantage when you’re trying to give the cliff note version to someone, or when you’re talking to another 8, then it’s fine to use.

So I think doing workshops and doing team building events … I think what I love about the Enneagram so much is that it’s helped me figure out who I am. And having figured out who I am makes me a better leader.

Matt :    Well, that’s so well said and that’s so interesting how you point out that when you’re with other people of your type, it’s just so easy. Things just click, but not everybody is your same type, and other people have different perspectives and different sensitivities. And you are learning to essentially modulate some of your type A behaviors … Oh excuse me, type 8 behaviors when you are with other types.

And another thing that you brought up too, I think, which is really important that especially for women in leadership roles, oftentimes it is more challenging and there’s a lot of societal pressure that you mentioned. It’s like, I don’t want to be a type 8, but you are a type 8 and you should be allowed to be a type 8 and be the leader who you are.

And I think, like you said, just embrace it and then understand it and move forward with it. And that’s such great advice, Sheena. So thank you so much. Did you have a final thought you wanted to share?

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          I just wanted to share that when you said other women, I now know a young woman who’s in her mid 20s who is in marketing. So I just asked her. I said, “What do you guys do these days for team building, just to know about your team?”. And she said, oh we do the Enneagram. I said, oh, I love the Enneagram. And so she looks at me very, and she says, what type are you? And I said, I’m an 8. And she says, I’m an 8 too. But I don’t like to say I’m an 8. And I said, Jess, embrace it because you’ve got such strong on skills, but I, I get that mad. I mean, I look at my daughter and she’s 14 and I don’t know what type she is we have to wait to what she evolves, but it’s confusing for women.

Like, do you lean in, do you not lean in, lean in doesn’t seem to be working? And I think that’s, that’s a personal struggle that all type 8 women go through because intuitively that’s our nature. We are big picture, big ideas, big strategists, we are the visionaries, we get it, we can gel things together and we want to go at a million miles an hour and we just want people to remove get out of our way and just let us go. And, and I think that that becomes really, really challenging. And so if you think of other ideas, I would love to know them. I am trying to put together my particular field is migraine or headache. I want to put some networking for women together to see how do we bring others along in this framework.

Matt :    Right. That’s, that’s so great. Well, thank you so much for sharing your, your thoughts and your insights with us today. Sheena I can’t tell you how much I’ve enjoyed our conversations and working with you on this and how much you’ve embraced it. And I hope that you’ll come back and share more insights in the future.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Absolutely Matt, it’s a pleasure and you’ve helped me so much. So it’s the feelings of mutual. Thanks.

Matt :    All right. Thank you so much. Bye now.

Dr. Sheena Aurora:          Bye.

Matt :    Thanks for watching. Sheena made so many great points about being a type 8 leader, type 8s have very strong intuition and often know exactly what to do. The problem is when working with teams, they might not be on same page. And Sheena describes that she’s learned to take the time and carefully explain everything to her team in a logical way. And she describes that as tapping into the type 7 dynamic, which I thought was very insightful. And then I also appreciated perspective as a woman leader and the importance and challenges of accepting and embracing being a type 8 leader in a organizational situation. So if you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel and get notifications of future episodes. And if you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again.

Enneagram Type 5 Leadership Path of Growth — Interview with Scott Schlegel

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Golf Pro and Director of Golf Operations, Scott Schlegel, is an Enneagram Type 5 leader. Scott shares insights about his personal journey of growth and how he uses the Enneagram at work.

I really enjoyed the way Scott shared his stories about how he is able to interpret what was required of a situation and then appear and play that role. That ability is one of the superpowers of Enneagram Type 5. Even the quiet Type 5 can come out as the emcee of an event and look like a Type 7 if that’s what is required of the situation. Scott really does a great job of sharing these experiences.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thank you for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’ll be speaking with Scott Schlegel, Director of Membership Experience at Spanish Hills Country Club in Camarillo, California. Scott’s been using the Enneagram for about 15 years and gives us a peek under the hood of what’s going on in the mind of Enneagram Type 5. If you enjoy these conversations, please click on the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel. And now for the conversation.

I’m delighted to be speaking today with Scott Schlegel. Scott’s held a number of management positions at golf country clubs. He’s a golf pro, and he currently holds the position of director of membership experience, undoubtedly, because he’s so thoughtful, friendly, and conscientious.

Scott Schlegel:                   Well, thank you, Matthew. Pleasure to be here obviously.

Matt Schlegel:                   And yes, we share the same last name because we are brothers. I’m guessing it was about 15 years ago when I first introduced the Enneagram to you. I am eager to hear how you’re using it in your current role. Thank you, Scott, for being here today.

Scott Schlegel:                   Yeah, no, thanks, Matt. When you introduced me to the Enneagram, it opened my eyes a little bit to how the certain types of personalities come out in all of us and you can trace it back as you do in the Enneagram to your behavior early in life and growing into your adulthood. It’s actually been quite useful in many aspects in my current job here. At Spanish Hills, we have about 130 employees at the club.

It helps kind of navigate through the relationships that you build with the other team members at wherever you work at, in this case, a country club, and the different departments that are formed. You have a tennis pro. You have a golf pro. You have obviously a membership sales person as myself, the general manager at the club, a chef. Chefs have a definite personality type, and it seems like that they fit their little niche pretty well. I’ve run into quite a few chefs at this point and they’re similar. Of course, they’re different.

They’re human beings, but they’re similar but different. It’s really been… The Enneagram is a pretty good tool for me to use to anticipate… I hate to say anticipate someone’s behavior, but it really kind of does help do that.

Matt Schlegel:                   It sure can.

Scott Schlegel:                   It’s helped me to kind of know what someone’s reaction is going to be to certain challenging or even just pleasant experiences that they have. It’s been a good tool, and I thank you for introducing me to it. I have subsequently introduced it to quite a few of the coworkers team members here at the club. We talk about it from time to time, and it’s really a pretty good tool.

Matt Schlegel:                   That is awesome. Yeah, you have a lot of moving parts going on at the country club and a lot of different personalities to deal with. That’s fascinating. And then also you’re dealing with members as well and understanding those dynamics. But before we get into that, I wanted to ask you, when you were first learning the Enneagram, what did you discover about yourself that you really didn’t know or appreciate before?

Scott Schlegel:                   I guess part of… I’ve self-diagnosed, and I think that you helped me to do that as well, as a 5 on the Enneagram. I can see some real definitive behaviors that I probably express that you’ve seen and noticed and can identify it. It’s helped me to identify some od I don’t want to call them shortcomings, just my behavior, my behavioral patterns. I know that I do like to stay within myself. I don’t like to share too much about what’s going on in my mind with everybody.

Whether or not that advances my career or advances any behavior that I have towards the other team members of the club, it just is what it is. But I’ve learned to recognize that to some extent and whether I can make some improvements on myself and I try to. Obviously we’ve talked about this a little bit. As a 5, of course, I’m going to be a little bit of a chameleon and sometimes I’ll jump into the 7 skin to entertain the crowd, so to speak.

As some of the job title that I carry has me… I’m seeing certain events, whether it’s a golf tournament or even a party out at the pool with a Vegas casino style night and someone’s got to emcee that event and keep it going and keep it happy and keep it fun. When you’re standing in front of a crowd of 150 to 250 people, I have become very comfortable in those situations.

Matt Schlegel:                   That’s amazing. That’s amazing for a 5. You’re there and you’re able to tap into that 7 energy to do it. That is really cool.

Scott Schlegel:                   Yeah, no. I think that I do that… I don’t know if it’s consciously, but I know how to act like a 7. Obviously we’ve talked about this too. Whether your audience knows or not, our father was a 7. We’re pretty sure of that, I guess. I sometimes find myself challenging or channeling him in a lot of my behavior. I think that it’s benefited me pretty well in the career path that I’ve taken.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh yeah, to have him as a role model and be able to just emulate those behaviors and that fun life of the party role that you could play.

Scott Schlegel:                   Yep. Yep. That’s funny. As we’ve discussed these issues in the past, there’s a couple of very let’s just say very well-rounded professionals that I’ve also tried to emulate in my career a little bit too to make sure that I’m projecting the position that I’m in. You don’t even probably know this, but just recently, I will be… In the very near future, I’ll be changing into the director of golf position, so back into the golf business here at the club, which is the leader of the golf operations of the club.

I’ve been wearing many hats at the club. And again, I think it’s my ability to navigate the personalities of everyone on the team. I don’t want to toot my own horn, but I think that if you asked around the club and even the membership and employees and team members altogether, everyone seems to kind of like the energy that I put out. I think as a 5, I do like being well-liked. I enjoy that. I enjoy that very much.

Matt Schlegel:                   That’s awesome. Do you have a specific example of how you’ve used that the Enneagram lately?

Scott Schlegel:                   Well, yeah. Not that long ago, we had a very strong 8 as the general manager at the club, and she was very demanding, but at the same time very protective of a lot of the other people in the team. I did find her… Her mood swings would be a little up and down. But she was I don’t want to say a perfectionist, but she definitely was very demanding.

I think that I used some of the knowledge that you and I have discussed over the years about how to just interact with an 8 without attempting to be manipulative, but definitely knowing how the mind of an 8 works can help you to navigate when that said 8 is your boss. You have reports you need to get done and ideas that you’re going back and forth on and with, and making sure that you at least get your point of view out there. I’m not necessarily going to always get my way.

I feel in my personality definitely lends to, if I need to, I’ll take the back seat and just ride along with the team. But then again, if I need to jump into the skin of a 7, as we’ve been doing lately, I can try to be the life of the party. To some extent, I’m amazing at that. I’m pretty good at that, Matthew. It’s been fun.

Matt Schlegel:                   The 5 and the 8 can form a really great working relationship. 8s want you to get to the point. You could get to the point. 8s want to feel in control. 5s can let 8s feel in control. 5s are going to have some ideas they want to share, but they’re not going to be super assertive about it. They can just slide it in and let the 8 kind of ruminate on it or work their intuition on it to come out to see if it influences the direction. I’m glad to hear that that all worked out well.

Scott Schlegel:                   Well, yeah. We talked about that and not necessarily needing to win every single interaction that you have or feel like you’ve come out on top with your idea of being pressed forward. When we talked about this, introducing just a small nugget of information and then maybe let the 8 run with it, think about it overnight, and magically the next day, your idea gets kind of put on the whiteboard and we all start talking about it. Whether or not we run with it, at least you got my point of view out there. It’s been good.

Again, I think that it helps… I don’t know if it necessarily suits a 5, I think that it does, that I have to have a more even-keeled demeanor. I try not to get too high or too low, and I don’t know if that necessarily fits every aspect of a 5. I do feel like when something gets very excited and everyone’s running around a little bit in a panic, so to speak, I can keep my head. Again, like I’m saying, I’m not necessarily saying that I’m always right about things, but it almost will…

I’ll come off as a duck on a pond with the above water looks very calm and cool, with the feet just paddling like the Dickens down below.

Matt Schlegel:                   Calm, cool, and collected.

Scott Schlegel:                   Calm, cool, collected. But little do they know that I’m working my butt off to try to keep that keel even, so to speak.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. Well, that’s a great story, Scott. Just one last question, what advice would you give to other leaders of your type, of Enneagram Type 5?

Scott Schlegel:                   Well, I think a lot of times a 5 will want to close the door to his or her office and maybe be a little more studious about things and try to figure it out by themselves, and sometimes to their detriment. It can work. But when you’re dealing with a team of, in my case, 130 people that we’re managing and we got a department heads and we have 12 different managers, so to speak. It has benefited me to be able to open that door and let people come in and listen to their ideas and not feel offended or not maybe release my ego.

I think that that’s a big thing when you’re working in a team environment with a lot of very strong personalities. In the hospitality and entertainment type industry, which country clubs essentially are, I know there’s some sport aspects to the club, but it’s like a big resort out there and we’re just trying to make everyone happy. Again, it’s one of those things where you can gather three or four or 5, or even all of the team together. We can talk about it.

I think as a 5, you can sit back and take the input from others and hopefully come out with an idea that is at least working towards success for the team. I don’t want to talk negatively about other personality types. I just think that, like I explained to you earlier, the 8 seems to be, “This is my idea. This is my show. We’re going to run it my way,” where I feel like as a 5, I get to sit back, listen to everyone’s ideas, process it in my mind.

Whether or not I come out with an idea that day or the next day, I think that it benefits the team to have that a willingness to listen to everybody else, accept the ideas, and then press forward with what we all think is the best idea for the team.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. Yeah. What I heard there was that it’s really important for 5s on teams to actually engage with the teams. Be out there. Be listening. 5s are great listeners, so that’s a great go-to skill to lean on. And then give back to the team and share your ideas and make sure that they’re folded into what everybody is thinking. That is fantastic advice, Scott.

Scott Schlegel:                   Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:                   Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your stories with us today, Scott.

Scott Schlegel:                   My pleasure.

Matt Schlegel:                   I know as a 5, sharing stories can be a little… It takes some courage, so I really appreciate you doing that. I hope that in the future that you can come back and share some new stories with us.

Scott Schlegel:                   I would love to do that. Thanks for having me, Matt. Appreciate it.

Matt Schlegel:                   All right. Thank you, Scott.

Scott Schlegel:                   Bye, brother. See you.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks so much for watching. I really enjoyed the way Scott shared the stories about how he is able to interpret what was required of a situation and come out in that role. And that is really one of the superpowers of type 5 is to be able to put themselves into a role and play that role. Even the quiet 5 can come out as the emcee of an event and look like a 7 if that’s what is required of the situation. I thought Scott really did a great job of sharing that and those experiences. Thanks again to Scott and thank you for watching.

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