Leadership

The Enneagram Leadership Interview series continues! In this episode, insurance professional and entrepreneur, Jan Berthold, shares how she used the Enneagram with her team to build an award-winning insurance firm.

I really enjoy Jan’s story of how she used the Enneagram with a coach to understand and manage Type A behaviors associated with Enneagram Type 3.   I also appreciated her story about a relationship she developed at work with an Enneagram Type 2 and how complementary the Type 2/Type 3 relationship can be.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for joining me today in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’m speaking with Jan Berthold. Jan is an author and an insurance professional who started an insurance brokerage firm from scratch and won numerous awards. She tells a great story of an Enneagram Type 3 becoming self-aware. Now, for our conversation.

I’m delighted to be speaking today with Jan Berthold. Jan is an author and her most recent work is The 80/20 CFO: The Guide to Making Strategic Transformation in Your Company. Jan is an insurance professional with Heffernan Insurance Brokers. Before that, she started an insurance brokerage firm from scratch. It was recognized by The Business Journal as one of the fastest-growing companies in Santa Clara County for 8 years, as well as being listed as one of the top 10 women-owned businesses and top privately-held companies for nine years. Jan also serves on the Board of Fellows for Santa Clara University and Jan is very familiar with the Enneagram and I’m eager to learn more how she’s used this powerful system as a leadership tool. Jan, thank you so much for joining me today.

Jan Berthold:                     Thank you, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:                   I just want to start off and I’d like you to share with the audience, how and when did you first discover the Enneagram?

Jan Berthold:                     Well, I was in a Type A modification class for probably 15 years. I wanted to be more Type B. I thought I was way out of control and I just didn’t want to be that way for my family and my kids and model that, so the instructor or the moderator for my Type A modification group was Dr. Jenna Price. It just turned out that Dr. Jenna Price partnered with Dr. Milton Friedman, who wrote the book Type A Behavior and Your Heart. She was an Enneagram expert and she took his book and her knowledge of the Enneagram and merged them into a whole practice. That was amazing, how she showed how people had Type A behavior and how it related to the Enneagram.

Then she wrote a book called The Enneagram and Type A Behavior, I believe it is. She has since passed away and I tried to find the book and I couldn’t even find it on Amazon. I was hoping I could show you a copy of it because it was an amazing book, the way she correlated the Enneagram with the pitfalls of Type A behavior and it just added so much depth and richness to the whole experience to be able to bring that Enneagram in. Of course, she knew every single person, it was an all women’s group and there were like 14 of us and she knew every single one of us, what our buttons were, what our pitfalls were. She was incredible. She was brilliant.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Jan Berthold:                     That’s my experience with the Enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:                   That is fascinating, looking at type a behaviors through the lens of the Enneagram and how each one of the types can come out and express that Type A behavior. Oh.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Well, if you do find that book, let me know because I definitely want to read that.

Jan Berthold:                     I know. I know. I can’t find it anywhere.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, so as you were going through that process, what did you discover about yourself that you may not have known or appreciated before?

Jan Berthold:                     Well, again, she nailed it and the Enneagram nailed it. Basically, I’m a performer and I always had this feeling in myself that I’m not good enough just the way I am, that I have to perform, and I could see that when I was growing up. I always had to get the best grades, I always had to be the smartest, I always had to be the best. It’s like I had this inner hole inside of me that I just wasn’t enough. It wasn’t good enough for me just to be here. I had to perform and then I was also the oldest of five children and so that all played into it. That’s what I learned.

Matt Schlegel:                   Wow. Wow. What Enneagram type did you land on as you went through that process?

Jan Berthold:                     Well, the performer is the one.

Matt Schlegel:                   That’s Type 8, is that-

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, I think it’s 8, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   … Okay.

Jan Berthold:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative). Then I also had a little bit of the perfectionist, which of course feeds into it. I probably need to go back and refresh my memory, but that’s what I remember.

Matt Schlegel:                   Got it, got it. Yeah, a lot of those Type A behaviors, there’s a lot of overlap between Type 3 and Type 8 and performer, that’s a little bit of a ambiguous word, too. The 8 is often called the “asserter” and the 3 is the “achiever.” The performer, where does that land? It’s interesting what words we use to describe the different types, but you’re pretty confident that you landed on the Type 8 behavior?

Jan Berthold:                     But maybe it was the achiever. I mean, “achiever” sounds more like the performer to me, always this relentless need to perform to achieve, to be better, to be better tomorrow than I was yesterday. I still have that, you know?

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, right, right.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, so maybe you’re actually the Type 3, that achiever that has that relentless drive to success.

Jan Berthold:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right, yeah. That’s exactly it.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, yeah. Now, as a leader, you brought the Enneagram into the workspace. How did you use the Enneagram with your team?

Jan Berthold:                     Okay, so when I owned my company, I did the Enneagram on everyone in the company. It was so interesting because I had one person who was like my right-hand person. She totally ran the back office. She was like a superwoman and she was the giver and it was really enlightening for her and for me to nail that down and she could see how she would give, give, give, give, give, and then she’d get resentful. Something would trigger, somebody didn’t appreciate it, whatever, and it was like that. This is something that she learned and I learned and so that helped.

Then we had another person who was… The 3 of us were really leading the agency. She was a total off-the-wall, I mean, total perfectionist, and so in retrospect, we put her in charge of some things that probably didn’t make sense because of her perfectionism. Her standards were so high for everyone and it made her frustrated and it made us frustrated, so in retrospect, I probably should have not made her in charge of all of our procedures and making sure that everybody toed the line, but those are things you learn in retrospect.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right, because she’ll take that to heart and make sure-

Jan Berthold:                     Oh, man, did she ever? Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   … I can only imagine.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, so we needed you, Matt Schlegel, back then to… We needed your team Teamwork 9.0 book, but it didn’t exist back then.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Well, and the Enneagram in general, it’s such a great tool for, one, helping us understand these dynamics, but then giving us a vocabulary to talk about it with our teammates, right?

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, exactly.

Matt Schlegel:                   Because now, we have a common language that we can work through these things, and it’s no longer so personal. It comes more of this, “Oh, yeah. This is my main dynamic and this is what I’m doing.” You can talk about it a little more objectively.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   The other thing that you mentioned, too, it sounds like that the giver is the Type Two.

Jan Berthold:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Schlegel:                   It’s really common for Type Twos and Type 3s to team up and work together because they’re very complementary, whereas the 3 is just so focused on getting stuff done and achieving and sometimes you can lose track of essentially what people are feeling in the environment, whereas the giver, the Type Two, is really tuned into that.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, she was.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, and then she could give you some feedback on, “Hey, let’s take care of this or that,” which if it has something to do with feelings, it might be in your blind spot where it’s a bright red flag to her, and by teaming up, you can really complement each other and make sure that everybody is taken care of not only getting the job done but their emotional needs are also being taken care of as well, which can be very important.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah. That’s totally true and that’s exactly how it played out.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. Yeah, I mean, that’s great that you were able to use the Enneagram to come to those conclusions and then just develop even a stronger bond together. Yeah, yeah.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, we do. We were amazing together.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, that is great. That’s great.

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Jan, tell me, what advice would you give to other leaders of your same type, Type 3?

Jan Berthold:                     It’s really hard to change the way you are sometimes but I think it’s really important to do the work and to realize that you don’t always have to be number one and that you’re great just the way you are. My daughter reminds me of this all the time. Just take more time to meditate, to think, to be more reflective, I think. The Enneagram and this Type A modification class really helped me. It changed my whole journey and changed my relationships in so many positive ways, so they kind of worked hand-in-hand.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. That’s great also that you have brought your daughter on this journey as well and she’s being supportive of you and giving you some feedback: “Mom. You don’t need to do all of that today.”

Jan Berthold:                     Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that’s her, uh-huh (affirmative).

Matt Schlegel:                   Yep, we have a similar dynamic in our family, so I’m very well aware of this.

Jan Berthold:                     Uh-huh (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Schlegel:                   Well, thank you so much, Jan. I really appreciate your sharing, your stories and that insight, especially that powerful story of really understanding as that Type 3/Type A achiever how important it is to recognize that tendency in yourself and to learn to just end up being at peace with yourself so you’re not so driven all the time and influencing all the relationships around you, so thank you so much for doing that.

Jan Berthold:                     Thank you, Matt Schlegel, and thank you for writing the book. It’s great, it’s very-

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, yes, it was my pleasure. I really appreciate how you got so much out of it and sharing with that and I hope you can come back again and share more stories about how you use the Enneagram and Teamwork 9.0 as a leader.

Jan Berthold:                     … Okay. Thank you, Matt Schlegel.

Matt Schlegel:                   All right, thanks. Bye.

Jan Berthold:                     Bye.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks so much for watching. I really enjoyed Jan’s story of her using the Enneagram as a tool to understand and manage her Type A behaviors and how her coach was familiar with the Enneagram and gave her the vocabulary to understand and address those issues. I also appreciated the story that she told about the relationship she developed at work with a Type Two who she called “the giver” who’s the external, emotional type, somebody who’s very in touch with their emotions, and how teaming up with the Type Two can be a very complementary relationship for a Type 3.

If you found this helpful, please click on the Thumbs Up button, subscribe to the channel, and get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again.

 

 

 

 

 

Associate Director of Development at Gemini Observatory, Scot Kleinman, is an Enneagram Type 3 leader. Scot shares insights about his personal journey of growth and how he uses the Enneagram in a work environment with people who are predominantly scientists.

Check out Scot’s YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2lJ7RdBBowLLON762LQ6Qg

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’ll be speaking with Scot Kleinman associate director of development at Gemini Observatory on the big island of Hawaii. Scott’s been using the Enneagram for about 10 years, and will share some fascinating insights about Enneagram type 3. If you enjoy these conversations, please click on the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel. And now for our conversation.

I am delighted to have Scot Kleinman here with us today. Scott is the associate director of development at Gemini Observatory and previously managed instrumentation at the Subaru Telescope, and before that, nighttime operations for the first Sloan Digital Sky Survey. He has a PhD in astronomy and a master’s of business administration. His research interests are stellar pulsations, white dwarf stars, and large scale surveys. Besides building and managing telescopes and observatories, he writes a blog about astronomy management, and develop and leads a number of short courses on efficient work habits and leadership. He lives in Hawaii with his wife and 11 year old daughter, he has a couple of German cars, some surfboards, a water ski and a unicycle. And Scot is also a college buddy and dear friend, and I remember him riding his unicycle back and forth to class in college. Scot, welcome.

Scot Kleinman :                 Thank you, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:                   Well, I am so delighted to have you here with us today. You’ve attended a couple of workshops I’ve conducted in which you’ve shared your insights about your journey of understanding your Enneagram type and all of the epiphanies that you’ve had along the way. And it’s always been so fascinating to hear you explain that to the group. And so, I just want to start and ask you, how did you come to know the Enneagram?

Scot Kleinman :                 So, I had this crazy friend in college who you might know, who came to me one day with this great discovery in that he learned this sort of system that allowed him to better predict what other people were doing, which had allowed him to sort of control things and then wake up sort of a little less anxious because he kind of knew how people were going to behave. And so, he brought this thing to me and I said, “Wow, this is great, I can learn about people and get them to do more work for me.”

Matt Schlegel:                   So, what type would like to get more work out of people?

Scot Kleinman :                 Exactly right, I mean, the irony of our different initial buy-in right to the Enneagram, it didn’t really occur to me until later, right. To me, this was a new tool I could use to get more work done. And yes, I’m an Enneagram type 3. So for me, it started off really as that sort of a tool, I can better organize my team, better assign tasks to my team members, et cetera, by knowing what their motivations and drives are. And then it’s expanded since then in how I see things and how I use things, that’s really how it started. So, thank you, Matt, for bringing this to my attention.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, well, I am so glad that you got so much out of it and you have embraced it both in your work and personal life. And speaking of that, so as you were getting to know the Enneagram, what did you discover about yourself that you may not have really understood as well before?

Scot Kleinman :                 That’s a continual and ongoing process, I think. So, I can tell you some of what I’ve learned so far. I think the most surprising thing was when you described… You said since you were six of feeling anxiety so strong that the only way to deal with it is just to suppress it and go on. Now, I mean, eventually you learn to bring it out and accept it, right?

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Scot Kleinman :                 But it was just really intense anxiety, and so you just can’t function. And you said, “Hey, Scott, 3s are like that with emotion.” And I’m like, “Okay, fine.” I understood that analogy and the Enneagram says this, but it never really felt real because I was still suppressing my emotions.

Matt Schlegel:                   Sure.

Scot Kleinman :                 And so, it wasn’t until I finally started to bring those out and deal with… My mental analogy is I had this sort of box with a lid, and any strong emotion that I had heard since a fairly young age, I think, got stuffed into that box. It was in there with its feeling, but not necessarily with its attachment, but what it was attached to. Occasionally those would leak out and I’d feel something, like there’s nothing for it to be associated with. And so, I really had to go into that box, open it up, feel all those things, and then there was another message behind that, which was the sense at a fairly young age that I was not feeling enough. I could not feel enough to relieve the suffering and the feelings, the bad feelings of others. And I interpreted that as something wrong with me, that I couldn’t feel enough to do good, and bad things were still happening in life, and I wasn’t able to affect that.

So, sort of when that came out, I realized that I do have very strong emotions, despite the fact that most of my life I acted as if I had no emotions. And so, now I understand that analogy that you presented to me years ago with anxiety and emotion, because I would not have said, “No, I don’t feel emotions deeply,” but I do, I very much do. And so, that was really one of the biggest discovers is doing it. And then figuring out how do I exist within that rather than continuing to bury them, right? How do I live with that and function? That’s sort of what’s been going on since that discovery.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, that is so fascinating. Hey, and another thing that struck me there is that analogy between the suppressed anxiety and the suppressed emotions, and sometimes my natural style also is to press the anxiety, and sometimes the anxiety comes out, and I too may not know what that is attached to.

Scot Kleinman :                 Right.

Matt Schlegel:                   But now just being aware of, “Oh, here comes the anxiety,” it allows me to understand that it’s coming out and then start to be able to figure out, “Okay, what is it attached to?” Have you also been able to have a better understanding of what the emotions that are coming out are attached to?

Scot Kleinman :                 Yeah, so certainly in the moment, so new emotions, I’m much better able now to experience as they arise and be more emotionally present in the moment. This sort of past backlog that was just a really strong backlog of overpowering emotion, and it would just be overwhelming when it would come out. And that was kind of a core feature of just my existence, was these occasional overpowering emotions that would come out, and I would usually have to stuff back down again because I wasn’t ready to be overpowered by emotions. And that’s gone now, and I got rid of that just by sitting with them for a while, spending some time sitting with those emotions, and just feeling sad or lonely or whatever.

And then I got some of these other messages. There’s a lot of shame, there was shame and guilt, I think, for not being emotionally available. So, every time I felt that emotion or a connection from somebody and didn’t respond emotionally, not only did I stuff that emotion in that box, I also added a new emotion, which was guilt or shame for not being emotionally present in that moment. No idea any of this was going on, but when I sat with these emotions and started to figure what they were telling me, that was one of the things they were telling me. I felt really bad as I was an incompetent person for not responding and being emotionally connected with people.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, wow.

Scot Kleinman :                 In terms of, did I learn what they were talking about? Yes, and that was one of those messages that came out as I sat with them, was my process.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, that is so insightful, Scot, thank you for sharing that, that’s amazing. So, just shifting gears a little bit, where have you been able to or how have you been able to use the Enneagram in the workplace and as a leader?

Scot Kleinman :                 So, I can get more done from my staff.

Matt Schlegel:                   Getting stuff done, that’s what 3s do.

Scot Kleinman :                 Yeah, so there’s a few different things, I’ve sort of taken different approaches. One I was just thinking of the other day. There was a seven on a team that I inherited, and for a long time I never could quite figure out what to do with him. I liked him, friendly guy, knowledgeable, but I couldn’t go into his office and say, “Can you write me a report on this?” A, he was never in his office, and if he was, was on the phone or listening to music too loud and disturbing everybody else. So, he just wasn’t the kind of guy who you can sit down and write [inaudible 00:10:57] on something.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Scot Kleinman :                 And if I wanted just to solve a technical issue, he wasn’t that kind of person either who was going to roll up his sleeves and solve something, and he was never around. So, I just kind of couldn’t quite figure out what to do with him. And then, as I sort of thought about it and realized the strengths of a seven the connections. He knew everybody.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Scot Kleinman :                 And he also knew the big picture because he knew how all the pieces fit together. If you ask him how each little piece was constructed, he may or may not know. But he knew enough about each piece to you know how they were connected, and that this piece over here depends on this piece over here. He had that network, both technical and social just on tap. And so, I started realizing that is his super strength, and that’s where I can use him.

So, now I talk to him about a project maybe that’s not going well and figure out what’s going on, or, “We’ve got a lot of different ways we can attack this particular problem, can you sort of figure out what’s the best payoff and talk to people and figure out how we’re going to approach this?” Or, “We’ve got a problem, we need to build a team, can you give me some suggestions on how to do it?” Fantastic at those things.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Scot Kleinman :                 This helped me in that example, but the different types as well is to appreciate someone whose strengths are not mine, and to not only appreciate them, but then value them because they’re not my strengths. And this is that person’s super power, which is a super power I don’t have, and that’s how that person is happy, and that’s how I get more work done, [inaudible 00:12:39].

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, oh, that is such a great example, that’s wonderful, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, sevens, they really are such great networkers, and they love that interaction with people, and they get bored so easily with that kind of detailed work that doesn’t allow them to be interacting. And so, just knowing that and focusing them on what they’re great at, and what they love, and keeping them away from the things they don’t love, it’s magic, right?

Scot Kleinman :                 Yeah, because I would have thought this person was just kind of this useless FTE, and now I have a whole slew of stuff that I’d like this person to help us with.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, oh, perfect. So, just one final question, Scot, what advice would you give for other leaders of your Enneagram type, type 3?

Scot Kleinman :                 So, I’m always torn, I don’t know how much of my personal experiences are me and how much is a 3. I know there’s obviously a blending, but for me, the real key to growth has been just using the Enneagram as personal discovery, and embracing my emotional side, and backing off from that constantly wanting to impress people for what I do, learning to react to people. I think, you asked in one of your workshop, “How do you get along with a 3?” And the simple answer is, “Praise a 3 for something they’ve done, 3s love that.”

And yes, I eat that up, but then I think back in my life, “Where are the interactions that are really memorable?” And there are those rare occasions when I’ve let people in and heard the message that they appreciate me for me, that it doesn’t matter what I do, or maybe it’s despite what I do, they appreciate me for me. And those were key moments. I didn’t quite realize why until later on when I went through that, but that allows me to stop and relax, instead of constantly judging my interaction with you, “Is this going over well or do you like me? How is this going? Do I need to adjust my approach and be a little bit more like this, or maybe a little bit more like this in order to get that appreciation?” It allows me to relax, and that’s a huge relief.

So, I think just understanding that 3s, I think, one of their super powers when they get over that initial hump, is authenticity, it’s emotional authenticity, and you can’t do that unless you’re willing to go through that work yourself, and be vulnerable yourself, and start offering some of those emotional connections that I traditionally shunned. I would never go into an employee’s office and say, “Hey, how was your kid’s basketball practice?” I would say, “How’s that report?”

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Scot Kleinman :                 Because that’s what I needed, right? And so, you’re learning that not only does that work for other people, but it also works for me. And so, that made me feel more comfortable, and it allows the more emotionally adjusted staff than the non-immature 3s, it allows them to connect and feel better. So, I think really going through that process and understanding the power of your own emotions really, for me, that’s just been a whole eye-opener, a world life changer.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, that is amazing, Scott, and thank you for sharing that, and I think that everybody can really benefit from just having the self-awareness that comes out of really exploring your Enneagram type in depth, any Enneagram type, but I think that’s brilliant that that worked out so well for you.

And I just want to say that I appreciate you for you being you, I have for years and years and years, and I just value our friendship so much and all the time that we’ve spent together over the years, and thank you so much for coming here today and sharing your stories, and hopefully you’ll come back again in the future and share some more of your insights.

Scot Kleinman :                 Well, thanks, Matt, that means a lot to me, and glad I could join you today.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for watching. If you found this helpful click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel, and get notifications of future episodes. If you have a question, please leave it in the comment section and I’ll get to it as soon as possible. Thanks again.

Education law attorney and former Seattle public school board member, Jill Geary, is an Enneagram Type 7 leader. Jill shares how the Enneagram provides insights into the interpersonal dynamics that arise on school boards and how she used those insights to navigate disputes and achieve favorable outcomes.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’ll be speaking with Jill Geary. Jill is an attorney who specializes in education law. She served on the Seattle Public School Board and now she’s getting an advanced degree in education policy in London. I’m looking forward to learning how she used the Enneagram as a leader while she was on the Seattle Public School Board and as an education advocate. If you enjoy these conversations, please click on the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel. And now for the conversation.

I’m delighted to be speaking today with Jill Geary. Jill’s an attorney who specializes in education law. After practicing law and serving as an administrative law judge specializing in cases for children with special needs she was elected and served on the Seattle Public School Board. She’s now getting an advanced degree in education policy at UCL’s Institute of education in London. Full disclosure. Jill’s my sister. And she’s been with me on my engram journey from the very beginning. Today I’m eager to hear how she has used Enneagram in her leadership positions on the Seattle Public School Board, and as an education advocate. Jill, thank you so much for joining me today.

Jill Geary:                           Oh, thank you for having me Matt. I’m really looking forward to this.

Matt Schlegel:                   Awesome. So, we know how you discovered the Enneagram, it was through our many conversations as I was learning it. And I just so appreciate all the great conversations because you gave me a lot of insight in to Enneagram type 7 as we were having those conversations. And I so appreciate you embracing it and really taking it to heart and studying it yourself. And so I’m really interested as you were learning the Enneagram what did you discover about yourself that you may not have understood or appreciated before?

Jill Geary:                           Well, I think if you recall, you were fairly convinced initially that I was a type 6 along with you and our mother. And I think my personal resistance, it’s not that I didn’t appreciate that I had 6 traits and having been raised and grown up with a lot of 6 energy around me, I felt very resistant. And so I kept going back to the Enneagram and trying to figure out what about me was different from you that made sense.

And so, in just realizing that I was a 7 gave me permission to let go of this idea that I’m supposed to worry about things all the time which wasn’t as comfortable, and I felt created a lot more conflict even within the family dynamic. That once I could embrace that I was a 7 and therefore was going to prioritize adventure and fun with less concern about the risk involved, not that I’m entirely risk adverse, it just freed me up to be more comfortable in a lot of different dynamics. Just understanding that that was a priority for me, that was comfortable. And it was okay not to carry the worry that didn’t make me irresponsible, let’s say.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, that is so fascinating because you grew up in a 6 household. And so you were kind of carrying that 6-ness with you in spite of your 7-ness, which created a load for you. And so, just by understanding those dynamics you were able to let that go. That is really great. That’s great.

Jill Geary:                           Well, and we’re in a similar triad. Correct? So-

Matt Schlegel:                   That’s right.

Jill Geary:                           We’re going to have some underlying dynamics that are very comfortable between us. And so it creates a lot of understanding and a lot of symbiosis, let’s say. So it’s easy to see where we’re similar and yet there’s that tension. So it was good to get that identified.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes. Yeah. So I want to get to how you’ve used the Enneagram in your leadership roles. So, I remember having quite a number of conversations about the dynamics when you were on the public school board. So what was that like for you and how did you feel like you were using the Enneagram in that role?

Jill Geary:                           I think what it does for me is, because I want people to get along, and I want us to move forward in a way that everybody is as happy as they possibly can be. And so, I think where I would use it most frequently is to help people work through the conflicts that seem to be causing them emotional difficulty, as opposed to you’re always going to have philosophical differences, you’re going to reason through things or have different goals, different priorities. But when people seem to be getting stuck and emotionally invested in it, it was helpful to me to think about the Enneagram.

And even in a more general way, like the idea that if there are all these different types of people that have these inherent, even if it’s nine and we know it’s nine plus, that just talking to others about the fact that they’re feeling conflict, maybe not because of the issue that is presented but because of how they’re processing or reasoning through it. And they’re feeling that they’re not being heard or understood because they’re not actually hearing and understanding the perspective or point of view of the other person. And so, even that without having to come to a conclusion about the number that I was working with, just the idea of difference that can be so deeply held and coming from different points of view, I found helped me to work people through so that they could move forward and we could function better as a larger group.

And we had a lot of conflict, but I would say that in many ways, I don’t know if it was my contribution in particular, but I think at the end of the day, we continued to work fairly successfully as a board during my tenure even with some pretty strong disagreements. But I think that’s one of the best things that the Enneagram has given to me because I am so driven by this idea that I want people to enjoy the work that they’re engaged in. I feel like that is a successful dynamic. And so, helping them to get to that point of comfort, if not joy, moves things forward for everybody.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. Well, that is such a good point because so many people just get caught up in their own perspective and just don’t understand why people don’t understand what they’re saying, because it makes so much sense to them. And Enneagram gives us this understanding that, well, your perspective is only one of nine distinct ways of looking at the world. And so other people are looking at it completely differently. And just that understanding is helpful so that you don’t create a contentious environment when some misunderstanding comes up, but then taking it beyond that and saying, “Oh, okay. Now I’m starting to understand how they’re looking at it. And if I reframe in a way that suits their perspective they’ll feel understood and we can move forward and everybody will be happy,” which is ultimately what the 7 wants.

Jill Geary:                           Right. And when you’re in an educational institution you’re dealing with a lot of teachers. And I can’t say what they are as a type but they tend to be people who are bringing a lot of emotion into the workplace. And at a public school level, that’s what you want. You want these adults that you’re sending your children to, to be emotionally responsive to your own children. And that in the context of leadership, it was really important to continually remind people that we were dealing with a large group, a large workforce that by and large is very emotional in how they process things, and rightfully so. They’re engaged in education, which is an intellectual pursuit, but they have to bring both their brain and their heart to the table. And so, it was just really important to me that everybody on the team continued to be reminded that we were impacting real people who perceive things in many different ways even as we were making decisions from a very high level.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. Yeah. So you bring up another great point. The Enneagram talks about the three triads. Right? The gut people, the heart people, and the head people. You and I are in that head group. And so we’re looking at things rationally, logically, but we know and appreciate the value of people who communicate emotionally, especially with our kids, making those emotional connections with them that are going to give them the trust and security to want to engage and move forward with education. And so that is so great that you saw that and recognized that in your conversations with teachers.

Jill Geary:                           Yeah. I know. That was very important. And that was nicely put. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, right. Nice. Well, so, just one last question before we wrap up. What advice would you give other leaders of your Enneagram type 7 as they start on their Enneagram journey?

Jill Geary:                           As they start on their Enneagram journey. Okay. As I start in there, I feel like from a leadership perspective as a 7, I tend to be one who’s continually looking at a lot of things at once. I like a situation where you’re putting out the fires, you’re inundated with information, you are handling a lot of different people. It keeps you excited and engaged. And I think that it’s really important for the 7 in order to be successful to make sure that they know who the people are around them who are going to remind them of the organization, the executive functioning of setting a goal and continuing to work towards that goal.

So I think it’s really important for 7s to have clear objectives for the work that they’re doing. Because as they’re moving around and exciting their brain with all these other things, you want to have a real follow through line to constantly test, is this energy somehow at some point going to come back to that line and move me forward in the direction that I ultimately want to go, or is it going to pull me away down some other fascinating path but maybe not the path that I want to be on now?

So that you don’t end up exhausting yourself and you don’t end up feeling defeated, because you never feel like you accomplish something even as you’re enjoying the process, you eventually want to be able to look back and see that you’ve got to where you wanted to go. And I think that’s one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned as a 7 when I feel myself being drawn away into other fascinating things to continue to remember that I do have a through line, I need to test things against that objective and make a decision and pull myself back in.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, that is so well said. Yeah. You’re speaking exactly to the 7s love for doing new, different, fun things. And how while that’s delightful and lovely, it can distract you from a big goal that you’re trying to achieve and take away energy from getting you to that goal. So, wow. That’s wonderful advice, Jill. Thank you so much.

Jill Geary:                           You’re welcome.

Matt Schlegel:                   And thank you for sharing your stories with us today. And I hope that you’ll come back in the future and share some new stories with us as how you’re using the Enneagram as a leadership tool.

Jill Geary:                           Oh, well, thank you. Thank you for having me on. It’s been a pleasure.

Matt Schlegel:                   All right. Thank you. Thanks again for watching. I really enjoyed how Jill described the challenge for Enneagram type 7 leaders to maintain enough energy to get to the goal line of the main goals. Enneagram type 7s can want to devote energy into new areas, new fun things that come along, and if they don’t take care they may not leave enough energy to get to the goal line of the main goal that they’re trying to achieve. And I thought she did a great job of describing that. If you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel, and get notifications for future episodes. And if you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

In this inaugural interview of the Enneagram Leadership Path of Growth Series, Marketing and Business Development leader, Michael Kornet, shares his personal and leadership path of growth as an Enneagram Type 6.  Michael reveals his own communication style and shares important tips for how to communicate well with Enneagram Type 8 co-workers.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with business leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development.

Today I will be speaking with Michael Kornet, a marketing and business development leader who has been using the Enneagram for about 10 years.

If you enjoy these conversations, please click the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel.

And now for our conversation…

I am delighted to have Michael cornet here with us today. Michael is a marketing and business development expert who helps companies develop a strategic vision and grow the business around that vision until very recently, Michael served as the executive for vis RT group, which acquired new tech, where he served as vice president and general manager for new Tech’s NDI business. I first met Michael over 20 years ago when we worked together at Replay TV. As Replay TV’s vice president of business development for media, he helps secure Series B financing and forged Replay TV’s strategic relationships with networks, studios, and advertisers. We also overlapped for a while at NewTek. Michael is a dear friend, and I’m so happy that he can join us here today. Michael, welcome.

Michael Kornet:

Thank You so much, Matt. It’s really cool to be here with you. And it’s funny you’re listening to the background there, it used to be where titles and I remember graduating from UCLA and all I really cared about was getting my first business card with my on it and wearing a three-piece suit and flying out a plane with my briefcase and it was all about that business card. And, it’s funny because now titles, to me really mean nothing. And what really matters is your purpose. As a person and what you want to do in life. And hopefully, that is something that makes a difference in the world. But in terms of titles, things have really changed.

Matt Schlegel:

Well, you have some really great titles, so I just wanted to make sure I got those in. So hey, we’re here to talk about the Enneagram and leadership and I am so happy that you agreed to come on. Cause I know you’ve been using the Enneagram probably for around 10 years now. So maybe you could just start off and give us a little background about how you came to know the Enneagram.

Michael Kornet:

Sure. Well first let me just preface by saying that, I’m a little reticent about this kind of thing normally talking about my personal stuff, and Mixing that, especially with business is not something that I usually do or usually comfortable with. But I do think that this is really an important subject and, because I’ve… You’ve been such a great help to me over the years and I really want to, see if I can help as well. Anybody else that’s out there. I got lucky because I met this guy named Matt Schlegel many years ago and back then at Replay TV, I saw, here’s this hard worker, kind, you know, he’s good.

Michael Kornet:

But then later on, many years later on what I recognized was, there’s some wisdom here and there’s an expertise in business relationships that turned out to be really, really valuable. And you came back into my life, as you said, at new tech and it was just the perfect time for you to show up. And so I kind of, when you say, well, how did Annie grams, come into your life? I just kind of put that under the moniker of the universe provides. It was just  for you to show up and I’m grateful for it.

Matt Schlegel:

Very cool. So as you became familiar with the Enneagram and if you would like to share your type what did you discover about yourself as you were learning about that Enneagram and your type specifically?

Michael Kornet:

Yeah, I mean so just a quick background, there was a big organizational change, and if anybody else out there has gone through that or is going through that right now, it can be a very tumultuous and sort of… You almost feel like you’re in a rock and a hard place sometimes, and you have some real gut checks that you have to do. Like, do you want to leave? Or do you want to stay, stick it out and make something worthwhile of it all? And, it’s funny because there was another executive there, that went through the same organizational change. And we were both reporting to the president at the time and then it switched to the COO and he ended up leaving, and I ended up staying and sticking it out and wanting to make it work.

Michael Kornet:

And, here’s the good news that he actually ended up being very successful on his own and leaving by leaving. And I ended up being very successful, staying and making it work. So the good news is that there’s options for these, for anyone going through this there’s options and you can make it work either way. By staying, what I gained? First of all, I learned a lot, but what I gained was a lot of respect internally, to turn something like that around and make it successful internally within the organization with the other executives there who knew what was going on. I gained a lot of respect. And that means a lot when you’re in an organization with a lot of people that you respect as well. So what I really learned was one that I don’t get right to the point, have you noticed?

Matt Schlegel:

You don’t say. We need all the contexts, don’t we? Now what Enneagram type is that?

Michael Kornet:

And so, yes, I see all sides to it. I have to see it up and down, inside and out. And so it’s funny because I didn’t realize that about myself, which is strange. You would think you would, but I really didn’t until my supervisor who I guess would be in an eight. So very instinctual, just has all the instincts is, just acts on stuff immediately and gets right to the point. And, I wrote an email once that I CC’d him on. And he immediately called me up and said, that person that gets that email is not going to know at all what you were talking about or what you wanted from them. And so that was a real, clear indication that things were very, very different in the way we approached things.

Michael Kornet:

As it turns out, and that happened a few times. And as it turns out, I was actually still very successful in doing those emails that way. And he recognized that. And so it then became almost something of a laughing matter. So it wasn’t butting heads or anything. It was more of, okay, that’s funny, we’re so different, but you’re still really successful in doing it that way, but I would never do it that way.  That was, putting up a mirror to me was really, really interesting, that things could be so different and that I was not right to the point on the very first sentence of an email.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. I mean, it’s really amazing how, each Enneagram style has a communication style associated with it, a preferred communication style and how by knowing your own style and knowing the style of the other Enneagram types, you can tune your style to perfectly match up with the style of the person you’re trying to communicate to. And so that you just, you’re highlighting the fact that your style is perfectly tuned for communicating with the 6 while communicating with other types, you may have to make those adjustments.

Michael Kornet:

Yeah. And that’s a good point. And I also felt like when I did that, I still had to be authentic. So I still had to be myself, but if I was cognizant of it, then I could address it a little bit better, even still being myself. Does that make sense?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. Well, that’s great, Michael. And so just one last question, and thank you again so much for being here, but I’d love for you to share with other leaders who, particularly, if they’re Enneagram type 6 leaders, what advice would you give them?

Michael Kornet:

So I would just say, use your strengths. Don’t worry so much about… This is just my, so I’m no expert, but I would, I didn’t feel like I wanted to worry so much about my weaknesses there, but just really leverage the strengths that I had and know that if you’re successful, then things will work out. Even if the relationships are very, very different that if you can still figure out a way to be successful at what you’re doing, you’ll be okay. And it’s kind of like I had a boss a long, long time ago who had a wonderful saying that said “When the numbers are up, all problems go away.” And that’s kind of how I felt there where, just be successful, be true, and things will work out.

Matt Schlegel:

And maybe you could just elaborate a little bit on where you think your strengths are, what strengths did you lean on as you were going through that?

Michael Kornet:

Yeah. So mine were relationships and the kind of deeper caring about. So I focused on third-party relationships, which  a lot of what my role was and their success. And so while we, while the business unit really needed to grow, and there were revenues involved with that, if the focus was more on their success, rather than the dollar signs, then I was much more successful in that way. And I was really true to that. And I think that, that was probably the biggest factor in the success of NDI in the beginning. And so, and while an eight might be much more, let’s track the numbers, let’s do all that kind of stuff. For me, it was, this will happen over time. If I just show that I’m here to help them be successful and because they’re successful, we’ll be successful. And that worked really, really well.

Matt Schlegel:

That’s fantastic. So really leveraging off of your strength, your ability to make strong relationships is the strength that you use to kind of carry you throughout your success it sounds like.

Michael Kornet:

Yeah. And I’m a, one of my hobbies is tennis. And so I have a analogy there where, if you have a really strong forehand and maybe your backhand is not quite as good, you could spend hours and hours just practicing your backhand and trying to improve it to the level of your forehand. Or you can take that strength that you have and improve that even more as a weapon and just run around the backhand every once in a while, if you can. Right? And so, and I think that you’d be a lot more successful there than spending all that time, trying to get the weakness up to where your strength was.

Matt Schlegel:

And you know what, you could probably say the same thing about your Enneagram type too. I think a lot of people try to compensate for their Enneagram type, by trying to build up strengths in other areas when they have all of these latent strengths right there at their disposal. And it’s really great that you were able to recognize those and tap into them and be successful. So, Michael, I just want to thank you so much for being here today. I know, like you said, it took some courage to do this, and I really appreciate you doing that. And I hope that over time, I can have you come back and share more of your insights. So thank you again, Michael.

Michael Kornet:

I would love to. Thank you for everything that you’ve done it’s been such a tremendous help in my career. And I appreciate it.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks.

Michael Kornet:

Okay. See you Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for watching.

If you found this helpful, please click the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel and get notifications of future episodes.

If you have any questions, please leave them in the comments section and I will respond as soon as I can.

Thanks again!