Schlegel Consulting

Evolutionary Team Effectiveness

Leadership

Author Matt Schlegel featured on the Lead to Succeed Podcast

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Honored to be a guest on the Lead to Succeed podcast with Rebecca Jenkins in which we discuss leaders who are leading with self-awareness and how that helps them better communicate and build trust with their teams.

Find the podcast here:
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/lead-to-succeed/id1521166867

Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubGVhZHRvc3VjY2VlZC50b2RheS9mZWVkLnhtbA

Spotify:  https://open.spotify.com/show/5dUTcR1xq1Zp723ZonLRal

Learn more about Rebecca Jenkins here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rebeccajenkins-rjen/

[Transcript]

Rebecca Jenkins:

Welcome to our Lead To Succeed podcast, where we share leadership and business growth insights, both from our own experiences and that of our guests. We’re the hosts. I’m Rebecca Jenkins, founder of RJEN, helping companies to grow by finding, gaining, and growing the best clients.

Callum Jenkins:

And I’m Callum, sharing my perspectives from both being at an entrepreneur and working in a variety of different companies. Whether you lead a team or a business, you’ll find practical tips, inspirational insights, and ideas, as we discuss a wide range of leadership topics. So with that, here’s today’s episode.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Hi everyone. We are delighted to have Matt Schlegel with us today. Now, Matt has a really interesting background to share with us. He is an author and he is passionate about working with leaders and teams to improve their performance. But it all starts with them being very self-aware. So Matt, a big welcome to you. Thank you very much to joining us today on our podcast. Please, please.

Matt Schlegel:

Delighted to be here.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Thank you. You’re in the States, please do a brief intro.

Matt Schlegel:

All right. Well, thanks again for having me speak today. I’m just so delighted to be here. Yeah, I started out as an engineer, and at some point my boss came to me and said, “Hey Matt, we want you to become a manager.” And I’m like, “Why do you want me to become a manager? I don’t know anything about managing people, I only know about leading electrons.” And my boss said, “Don’t worry, you’ll be fine.” Well, I wasn’t fine. I was worried. And I started to study everything I could get my hands on in terms of leadership tools and books. And as I went through that journey, I discovered this tool called the Enneagram. And being the engineer that I am, I like to take things apart and put it back together and see how it works.

Matt Schlegel:

And no matter how much I sliced and diced and dissected the Enneagram, it just really held up as a robust system, which appealed to my engineering senses. And I started using it both as a tool for personal self-awareness, then I started to use it as a tool for helping me better communicate with my team and getting my team to work better together. And so it’s a fantastic journey and it’s such a powerful tool, which is why I ended up writing a book about my experiences, and sharing that with other leaders and aspiring leaders, to help them on their journey to becoming a self-aware team leader.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Let’s hear a little bit more about Enneagram and exactly what it is. So I’m familiar with DISC, Harrison Assessments and Myers-Briggs, so can you give us some context of where that sits in amongst those? And really we’re talking about understanding personality types maybe, but maybe it’s more than that.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. So yeah, so there are many tools out there to help teams become self-aware. Now, a lot of these tools, let me just use DISC as an example. When you’re working with a team, one of the things that you just want teams to come away with is that understanding that not everybody thinks the way that you do. That other people have different approaches and different perspectives, and they’re not wrong, and your way of looking at the world isn’t the only, and right way to look at the world. And let’s have an understanding of the value that each of these perspectives brings to teams and to teamwork. And by having that understanding, you build more trust in your team and you build just more cooperation and you lower some of the conflicts that can arise.

Matt Schlegel:

And you can get, it’s the 80/20 rule. With a tool like DISC, you can get 80% of the way there and have your team come to that understanding. But where I would differentiate, say, the Enneagram with DISC is that if you are the leader of a team and you really want to understand how not only you work and what is your underlying motivation, but that of your teammates, then a tool like the Enneagram gets down to that next layer of understanding. And that’s one of the things that I really liked about the Enneagram, is that it really speaks to underlying motivations. So if I’m working with a teammate, and if I understand that the way I personally am motivated is not necessarily the same way that my teammate is motivated, then when I’m working with them, I can frame the activity more in alignment with how they’re motivated so that they come to an understanding of how this is contributing to the success and effectiveness of the overall team. And so that’s, I’d say, one of the big differentiators for me, between Enneagram and many of the other systems.

Rebecca Jenkins:

I am fascinated by this, Matt. So how does it actually bring out your underlying motivational factors? And could you give us some examples, maybe share your own perhaps, of how it gets to the root of that? Because I think many people aren’t really sure what motivates them. So how does it bring that out?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. So the Enneagram, the Enneagram has nine different types, and you can think about it in terms of three groups of three. And it says that there’s the gut people, there’s the heart people and the head people. And you can kind of use that as the starting point. So some people are starting with thoughts, or in their head, some people are starting with their feelings, or their heart, their relationship of feelings with other people. And then other people are starting with their instincts, it’s like their gut instincts. So those are the three different starting points that the Enneagram speaks to. And so once you know what your Enneagram type is, you will know where your starting point is.

Matt Schlegel:

So for instance, my starting point is in my head. So I’m thinking, I’m thinking all the time, thinking, thinking, thinking. And for people who know the Enneagram, I’m an Enneagram Type Six. And for the thinking people, which it’s the Five, Six, and Seven, those types, the underlying issue is anxiety. And so that’s our main motivating force and it doesn’t mean we don’t have access to feelings or instinct, it’s just, that’s kind of the starting point. And as I started to use the Enneagram and I understood that I’m a Type Six, then I had this greater self-awareness of how anxiety was playing into my thoughts, my actions, my approach to life. And once you have that level of understanding of how this overriding influence is affecting you, and you have a name for it, then you could start to work with it.

Matt Schlegel:

And you can start to say, “Well, where is this benefiting me? And where is it hindering me? And how can I use the good aspects of it?” And then start to minimize the more negative sides of it. And so just having that, self-awareness just allows you to really start to work on some of these dimensions that allow you to come a more effective leader. Now, I’m talking about the story of the Type Six, but each one of those nine types has a different starting point, each one of them has a superpower strength, but also it has some aspects that are holding that type back. And once you have understanding of that dynamic within yourself, then you can work on it and just become that much better of a leader. And I think that’s the journey that I encourage all leaders to embark on. And I think that the Enneagram’s a great tool for that.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Well, I’ve got a question of around maybe imagine that I’ve got a team of 20, they all go through this process, or they take this assessment rather, it’s not a process, I guess, and do I then, or would any leader then know that all the certain types maybe prone to anxiety? Because how would a leader deal with that? Is that shared with the leader?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. So I mean, if you use the Enneagram with your team and I’ve done this a number of times, right?

Rebecca Jenkins:

Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

So one of the best things that comes out of it is that it gives everybody a vocabulary to talk about these dynamics that are happening in the team. So that, far and away, when working with teams, is the biggest takeaway, because then now people know how to talk about that. “Oh, you’re being such a Type One right now,” or, “Oh, I can see why you want to do that because that’s what a Type Five would want to do. Is that the right thing to do right now?” And so you can use the Enneagram in that way to just have everybody understand what their teammates dynamics are, but then also have that vocabulary that allows people to address conflicts when they come up, and gives them a vocabulary to get at what’s underlying that.

Matt Schlegel:

So just as an example, I’m a Type Six and my brain lives in the future, I am always in the future. I’m just thinking about the future. What if this happens? What if that happens? But not everybody lives in the future. A lot of people are really good at living in the present, and then some people actually are better at living in the past, and they’re kind of living in their feelings. And once you understand that dynamic, then you can watch people have conversations. One person is talking about something in the past, one person is talking about something in the future, they’re just completely talking past each other. They’re not meeting at all. And so once you understand that, “Oh, they’re talking about different points in time,” and then getting them to say, “Well, let’s come together here and just talk about the present,” then they start to see eye to eye. So there’s a lot of different aspects of the Enneagram that come in to play, especially in the dynamics and the relationships between different types.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Could you share some examples, Matt, where you’ve worked in businesses, where this has been very powerful, and what results teams have got through going through the Enneagram process?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. So what we’ve been talking about is using the Enneagram as more a personality system, and a tool for people to understand each other and have those conversations. And that’s a fantastic use for the Enneagram, and the dominant use of the Enneagram. It’s actually not the way that I generally use the Enneagram, I use it in a different way. And this is one of the epiphanies that I had with the Enneagram. If you look at the Enneagram diagram, it’s a circle with a bunch of numbers around it. And I was thinking, when I saw this, it kind of looks like a clock. If you remove all the lines from the middle, it’s just a circle with numbers around it. And that got me thinking that why are the Enneagram types in numbers?

Matt Schlegel:

And it occurred to me that each one of the Enneagram dynamics is a dynamic that plays into human problem solving. And the Enneagram describes the exact order in which humans solve problems. Now, I’m an engineer and I love solving problems, could be technical problems, but now it much more fascinating to me to solve team problems. So now I have this framework that describes how teams move through problem solving, and I facilitate teams to move through problem solving in the order described by the Enneagram.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Oh, that’s very interesting.

Matt Schlegel:

It is just amazing how effective teams can be when they systematically use that approach and move around the circle through problem solving. Now, do you actually need to know the Enneagram dynamics to do that? You actually don’t, you can just move around and just get the team into, “This is the dynamic of Type One, this is what we’re going to do today.” Type One is the type that says, “Hey, that’s not right. It shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this.” And their instincts are telling them, “This isn’t right.” Well, what’s the first step in problem solving, “Hey, that’s not right, there’s a problem here. It shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this.” So that’s how that dynamic is the first step in problem solving and on and around the circle.

Matt Schlegel:

But you can, if you’re a facilitator, you can say, “Well, this is the sequence of steps we’re going to go through. And today we’re going to examine the problem. We’re going to look at the problem and we’re going to look at how it shouldn’t be, that’s the problem.” Then flip that coin on the other side and say, “Well, how should it be? What would you like to see the world look like, in the world where there isn’t a problem?” And that’s the dynamic of Type One. And that’s how I use it with teams as I move them through each step in and problem solving.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Okay. So do you recommend then that a very successful team will have a mix of all of these different personality traits?

Matt Schlegel:

Well, so it’s exceedingly rare that that happens, exceedingly rare, for a number of reasons, and you know them. People hire people like themselves, and so you end up with very lopsided teams. And this is another way to use the Enneagram. It’s like, “If I want to be an effective problem solving team, then how do I balance my team?” And when I talk about this in my book, Teamwork 9.0, is how to diagnose your team and then how to balance it. I also talk about how each type has more or less ease of access to the other types. So for instance, as a Type Six, I have pretty easy access to the types on either side of me, the Five and the Seven. I also have pretty easy access to Types Three and Nine. And then I start to have harder time accessing some of those other numbers.

Matt Schlegel:

So if I have teammates that can compliment me in those other dynamics, so even if we don’t have a team with every single type, just because of our ability to access some of the other types, we can create a complimentary team with far fewer than nine types.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Okay.

Matt Schlegel:

And I talk about for instance, there’s these three balanced teams, the One, the Four and the Seven, the Two, the Five and the Eight, and the Three, the Six and the Nine. And each one of those teams of three people essentially have pretty ease of access to all the dynamics. And the curious thing about this, Rebecca, is that in companies, when I go in, I see this all the time, I see the Three, the Six and the Nine come together and work together. I see the Two, the Five and the Eight work together. I see the One, the Four and the Seven work together. It’s just organic and natural that those teams coalesce to work together, and it’s because they form these very complimentary teams.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Okay. So when you say have access to those numbers, do you mean I’m reading that as relate better to those numbers? Is that what you mean?

Matt Schlegel:

That’s not exactly what I mean.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Okay.

Matt Schlegel:

As we’re working through problem solving, there’s different dynamics that come into play, and the Enneagram says there’s nine distinct dynamics in the problem solving. Now, if I’m a Type Six, of course, I have very easy access to Type Six, but what’s my ability then to access those other types? So that’s what I’m talking about when I say access to that dynamic.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Oh, I understand.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, I’m saying during problem solving, when you need to do this one particular activity, am I very good at doing it? Or do I need to bring in somebody else who’s much better at that?

Rebecca Jenkins:

Okay. I think if people are really interested in what you’ve got to say, they can go to your website, can’t they? And take an assessment themselves.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes, I do. I have an assessment available on my website. It’s a complimentary assessment that they can access. And the website is evolutionaryteams.com, and the survey can also be accessed at enneassurvey.com, so E-N-N-E-A-S-U-R-V-E-Y.com. In either of those ways you can get to a complimentary test that will let you know, start you on that journey to understand what your dominant strategy, Enneagram strategy is, Enneagram dynamic.

Rebecca Jenkins:

I think, I mean, that’s great because there’s a lot more to this than we can cover in this conversation. But Matt…

Matt Schlegel:

Sure is.

Rebecca Jenkins:

You’ve written a whole book on it, for instance.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. And even I only for feel like I’m scratching the surface, I am discovering new things about it every day.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Well, that’s fantastic. And Matt, could you give us an example where, some real practical tips maybe, that our listeners could, one, they could go and take an assessment, but what else would you suggest that they might do to really get teams working together, highly productively and in a very coordinated and effective way? What practical tips might you give?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. So I would say to any leader or aspiring leader is to work on your own self-awareness, start there. And there’s a lot of different tools for doing that. We’ve been talking about the Enneagram, I just think that the Enneagram is one of the best tools, especially for leaders because it’s a little more complicated than some of the other systems, but it really is worth the extra effort for leaders who not only want understand themselves, but want to understand the underlying motivations of their teammates. Because as a leader, one, we want to understand, “Hey, what are we good at? And what are we not good at? And where can I compliment myself with other people with different dynamics to make us all a much more effective, powerful team?” So that’s one way of using this. And then, once you start to understand your own dynamic and you start to appreciate the dynamics of your teammates, and the underlying motivations of your teammates, then it helps you to have deeper and more meaningful conversations with your teammates.

Matt Schlegel:

And that, for people on your team, one, they’re going to really appreciate that you understand them, and at a very profound level. And it will also allow you to just build more trust with the people on your team, which is the basis for a lot of the interactions because a lot of times, if you don’t have that underlying trust and a conflict arises, people might, their brains might go to, “What are their intentions? Why they doing that? That just doesn’t seem right.” But if you’ve established the trust and you understand the underlying motivations, then it just becomes, “Oh, they’re doing that because of that. I get it, I get it. Let’s go have a conversation. We can fix this, it’s no big deal.” And it just, it makes those conversations so much easier when you have that vocabulary to really talk about the issues, and work through the conflict with your teammates.

Rebecca Jenkins:

I can imagine [crosstalk 00:25:42].

Matt Schlegel:

Recommendations, I know.

Rebecca Jenkins:

No, no, no, I think that’s a great recommendation. And I think what that would enable to happen, which is some of the key things that have come from leaders we talk with on the podcast, it increases emotional intelligence and authenticity. And when people feel they’re understood, they have a place of psychological safety, and they’re going to be able to come up with new ideas, and it will encourage innovation. So all those things that the leaders we have on this podcast are talking about that are essential to great leadership, I can imagine how all of that just provides that awareness and improves all of those aspects.

Matt Schlegel:

Precisely, precisely. I couldn’t have said it better myself, thank you.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Well, I can’t believe where time is gone, we are already 36 minutes into this, and I guess we ought to kind of wrap up at some point, which are there any closing feedback or thoughts really, that you would like to leave with our audience? We’ve talked about where they can go to take a complimentary assessment. But is there anything else that you would like to share as we wrap up the podcast?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. So here’s the one piece of advice I give for people, when they are starting on this journey, is that when you take the assessment, you’re going to score highly on two or three types, and low on other types. And use this as a process of elimination. Don’t take just the highest scoring one, take the highest two or three, and then start to read through the underlying motivations of different types and start to think about, “Okay, is my starting place in my head? Is it in my heart? Is it in my gut?” What is that underlying motivation? And then that will allow you to better get to which of those high scoring types is really your starting point dynamic.

Matt Schlegel:

And don’t worry, it’s not putting you in a box or anything like that, because we all do have access to all the different dynamics, but we’re tending to have a starting point. It’s like being right and left-handed I’m, right-handed, I start with my right hand, it doesn’t mean I don’t have a left hand. I have a left hand, I use it all the time, but I usually start with my right hand. Look at the Enneagram the same way and just find that your dominant starting point.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Yes.

Matt Schlegel:

And then from there, you can work out.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Well, that makes a lot of sense. It’s our dominant, more prominent, I don’t know, behaviors, I guess, or personality traits.

Matt Schlegel:

Right.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Yeah. It’s been really fascinating to understand that in more detail, Matt, really appreciate it. Thank you very much, indeed. And we will make sure that we put the links in the show notes so people can go directly there to access and have a complimentary insights and awareness as to where they are in the 12 different categories.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. Well, thank you very much for the opportunity to share this with you today. It was a delight speaking with you.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Likewise, Matt, very, very enjoyable, and a key tool for leadership and development, so thank you very much, indeed. Thank you for listening to our podcast. And as always, if you enjoyed it, we welcome a review. And if you have any questions and like to get in touch with us, you can do that at the rjen.co.uk website.

 

Leading with Self-Awareness — Interview with Marianna Grossman

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Action is the antidote to anxiety.

Marianna Grossman, founder and managing partner of Minerva Ventures, shares how she uses her concern for the climate to spur her leadership focused on solutions for a resilient future. She also talks about the joy she gets in bringing people and communities together to address the climate crisis while acknowledging the courage it takes to stand up and share within your circles your concerns about the climate and the future of the planet, while committing to action.

Find Marianna at Minerva Ventures: https://www.minervaventures.com/

 [Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using feelings as a leadership tool for both inspiration and motivation. Today, I’m speaking with Marianna Grossman, founder of Minerva Ventures. Marianna is passionate about addressing climate change. She shares how she uses that passion as a leader.

Matt Schlegel:

Now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

Today I’m speaking with Marianna Grossman. Marianna is a leader on climate. She is a founder and managing partner of Minerva Ventures, a consultancy focused on solutions for a resilient future. She advises companies and communities on climate risk, adaptation and resilience and also guides clean tech startups in water, energy, remediation, finance and climate analytics. She specializes in bringing people and institutions together across sectors to collaborate, invent and implement solutions that enhance sustainability, build resilience and address the consequences of climate change.

Matt Schlegel:

I’ve known Marianna for nearly 15 years now. I am so delighted to have her with us here today. Welcome, Marianna.

Marianna Grossman:

Thank you. It’s a joy to be with you today.

Matt Schlegel:

Great. Well, thank you so much for being here. Why don’t we start? I mean, you’re doing so much around work with climate, but I’d like to just start how you are feeling right now about climate change.

Marianna Grossman:

Well, I am feeling really concerned. I feel that the scientists have been saying for decades, four decades, that we need to take serious action, transform our energy systems and the way we interact with our ecosystems and we haven’t been listening. Then when we do listen, we haven’t been making the changes we need. I’m worried about the impacts today, and the future impacts, that we’re going to have to contend with.

Matt Schlegel:

How are you channeling those feelings that you’re having about climate change into your actions and behaviors as a leader?

Marianna Grossman:

As a leader, I am doing a couple of things. One is I do find that taking action is a great antidote to anxiety. That means working with companies that are doing really innovative things, helping communities do the hard work of integrating their different disciplines to be able to make their communities more resilient and looking at investments that are advancing technology that can be helpful. I do a lot of work bringing communities together to think about values and kind of the spiritual dimension that calls us to make transformational change. Then some of the time, I just distract myself like probably everyone else does. Then I feel guilty that I’m not constantly focused on issues and action because we are in an emergency, but I find that because it’s a long-term emergency, I kind of have to pace myself and sometimes give myself a break.

Matt Schlegel:

Well, I want to just thank you for the work that you do. Again, I’ve known you for a long time. I know how you’ve put so much energy into working on solutions to help solve the climate crisis that we’re in. I can imagine that it can be a little draining and overwhelming at times, but good for you that you found a pace that you can get to and continue to do the good work that you’re doing.

Marianna Grossman:

Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks again.

Marianna Grossman:

One other thing I wanted to say.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah.

Marianna Grossman:

The thing that gives me the most joy is bringing people together to share information, ideas and inspiration across different disciplines. Architects, business people, government people, NGOs, all kinds of people who are investors, who are concerned about climate change and those who are really taking leadership and trying to support each other in doing more, thinking more boldly, finding connections that they wouldn’t otherwise find. I think that’s the work that gives me the most joy.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, that is [great 00:04:56].

Marianna Grossman:

For many years, I’ve been trying to figure out how to get leaders to wake up to climate change and then to move toward action. I think there are so many things that leaders can do that they may not feel empowered to do. It’s time for us to take on that power.

Matt Schlegel:

The work that you’re doing, just building those communities, is very empowering. Everybody feels the energy and wants to just do that much more. That makes total sense. That’s a great strategy.

Marianna Grossman:

Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

Then what advice would you give to leaders who are having strong feelings about climate and climate change?

Marianna Grossman:

I think that the first thing is to be in touch with those feelings, to think about our children, our grandchildren, our future grandchildren, generations beyond that, bees, and all the other creatures that we share the earth with, and realize that life is imperiled. It really is. How do we think about all the levers of power we have? Every single one of us has more power than we think.

Marianna Grossman:

For the leader of a corporation, we have our treasury funds that we can invest differently. We have our products and our supply chains and our customers and our stockholder and employees to work with. We also have our groups like the US Chamber of Commerce and other associations, our alumni associations, our faith communities, our neighborhoods, our families, our friends. We have so many overlapping and interconnected networks. If we stand up in each of those and say, “I care about climate change and I’m committed to figuring out how to use all the levers of power that I possess to make a difference,” I think we’ll start to really see massive change.

Marianna Grossman:

To empower also think about everything, our food, our money, our clothes, our transportation, but also our relationships with political leaders or even running for political office so that the policies that are put in place help move us toward change. For example, we really need a tax, a price on carbon. Politicians have been knowing about it for years and afraid to take action because it’s going to upset the people who profit off of cheap carbon.

Marianna Grossman:

In fact, the external price of harm that these products do isn’t calculated into the price. The price needs to change. Then if you have a dividend, you give back money, you can make it be a progressive tax or a non-regressive tax so that people who use less carbon, get the same dividend as people who use more and it evens it out so you don’t have to worry about the price of gas going up because people will be getting money back to be able to meet their needs.

Matt Schlegel:

Well, clearly there’s so much that we can do, but what I heard you say, first and foremost, is just make sure that whatever circle that you’re in, let those folks know how important climate is to you and how just standing up and saying that, you are going to bring moral awareness and bring more people into working with you to solve some of these really critical issues that you’re identifying here.

Marianna Grossman:

I think there are a couple of key points. One is I might not be a scientific expert on this topic, but I can do research. I can understand it. I can partner with people who are experts. I can’t let that stop me from taking action. The other thing is it feels transgressive. Do I put a sign on my lawn that says, “Climate action now.”? Are my neighbors going to be uncomfortable with that? Or do I stand up in a board meeting and say, “We are in an emergency. We must transform the way we run our business.”? That’s a very frightening thing to say in a group of peers where everybody’s trying to show competence. If you don’t have competence on the science side, but you know that it’s a problem we have to solve, then you say, “We have to solve this and we’re going to bring in the expertise we need to do it well.”

Matt Schlegel:

That is a good point.

Marianna Grossman:

While I think hope is over, I think the future is going to be quite degraded compared to the present, we have to have courage to take action. That’s an example of that courage to say, “I don’t have all the answers, but I know that this is an emergency we have to address.”

Matt Schlegel:

You know we’re in a problem and we all need to stand up and address the problem and not-

Marianna Grossman:

That’s right.

Matt Schlegel:

… stay-

Marianna Grossman:

And get the knowledge that we need or the resources that we need or the advisors we need to help us do it. Don’t let not knowing be the reason that you don’t take action.

Matt Schlegel:

Well, that is a perfect way to end this. I feel like we are just scratching the surface on this topic. I’m so impressed with how you’re taking those feelings that you’re having about the problem and channeling them into leadership and action. I applaud you and thank you again. I hope that as you make more progress, that you can come back and share more of your thoughts of about being a climate leader in this time of crisis.

Marianna Grossman:

Thank you so much. It’s really a pleasure to speak with you today.

Matt Schlegel:

All right. Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for watching.

Matt Schlegel:

Being a leader in the climate movement is clearly fraught with many emotional ups and downs. Marianna shared how she feels worried about the climate crisis. Then she poignantly points out that action is the anecdote to anxiety. She also talks about the joy she gets from bringing people and communities together while acknowledging that courage that it takes to stand up in whatever your circles you’re moving and saying that you are concerned about the climate and that you want to take action. She also advises leaders to be in touch with their own feelings as a source of inspiration and motivation as they do clearly for Marianna herself.

Matt Schlegel:

If you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel and get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, leave them in the comment section and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

Enneagram Type 2 Leadership Path of Growth — Interview with Debbie Mytels

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Debbie Mytels shares that the most important thing she’s learned in her adult life is the Enneagram.  Debbie is an Enneagram Type 2 leader, and she illustrates how she uses the gifts of Type 2 to bring people together and connect them in common cause and purpose.  Pay attention to her points on communicating with others, enlisting people to join the team, and instilling purpose in team members through feelings. Thank you, Debbie, for sharing your stories and your wisdom.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for joining me today in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool with their teams and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’m speaking with Debbie Mytels, who serves as a leader for a number of climate-change-related organizations. Debbie is a highly aware type-two leader, and you’ll see how she uses her leadership for connecting people and in service for the greater good. And now for the conversation.

Today, I’m speaking with Debbie Mytels. Debbie is a leader on climate. Amongst many leadership roles, she’s currently the chair of Peninsula Interfaith Climate Action, co-chair of the outreach committee at Fossil Free Buildings for Silicon Valley. And before that, she was associate director of Acterra, an organization based in Palo Alto that does environmental education. Debbie’s superpower is connecting people and bringing them together, and I’m so delighted to be speaking with you today. Thank you so much for joining me, Debbie.

Debbie Mytels:                 Well, thank you, Matt, for inviting me. I’m looking forward to the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:                   Great, great. I am so eager to hear your Enneagram journey. So how did you… How and when did you first discover the Enneagram?

Debbie Mytels:                 I think I first heard about it because one of my coworkers at the conservation center had been a participant in an Enneagram class, and it seemed to give her a lot of insights into her own self and everything. And she said, “They’re offering another class.” So I went, and it was David Daniels’ long, I think, 9 or 10-week series of where he has a panel of five people of each type spend a whole evening talking about their selves and their life and what are the hallmarks of their point and everything. It was really one of the most amazing things I’ve learned in my adult life. I mean, you could see the large type-eight people who were dominant, going to be in charge, grabbing the microphones from each other. And the pencil-thin, little people who were type fives were asked, “Well, tell me about your relationship,” and they would say, “I’m married,” and then they wouldn’t say anything else. And then there was a type four who was asked about his relationship, and he started talking about lots of intimate details, and we were kind like, “Ooh.”

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, right. Whoa! Too much information!

Debbie Mytels:                 And I knew his wife was in the audience. It was so instructive.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. I mean, David Daniels, I mean, what an amazing person. I reference him in my book. I just love the work that he did and how he brought a lot of clarity to some of the different triads other than the main triad. So, wow, what a phenomenal experience to actually have worked with him.

Debbie Mytels:                 Yeah, it was wonderful. I learned a lot. And I’ve continued to learn more because a friend of mine is a type-five exemplar, who’s been on panels. And we chat about what we’re seeing in people’s behavior a lot too, so it’s always fun.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, that’s great.

Debbie Mytels:                 And very insightful.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes. Yeah. Well, so what did you discover about yourself that you really didn’t know or appreciate before you knew the Enneagram?

Debbie Mytels:                 Yeah, it was interesting because when I learned about it, one of the things that I recognized was that I did focus a lot on other people’s needs and feelings and thoughts and not myself. And at first, I thought maybe I was a type nine. But I went on a hike one summer, that year that we were learning about this, with my former husband. It was a long 13-mile hike, and neither of us were in that good shape really. We took along some water and a sandwich or two. And it was a long loop hike. And as we started out, he was in front walking along, and I was being the good, little wife and asking him about things at work and how it was going and all that. And he was telling me, and I was listening. And as we went on and we got tireder and tireder and we got to the end point of the loop, we had our lunch and we started walking back. And we were kind of draggy and tired, and we still had like six miles to go.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right.

Debbie Mytels:                 So I took the lead. I just sort of did. And then I kept saying, “We’re going to be okay. We’ll get there. Yeah. We almost drank all the water, but here, you have some more. But we’re going to make it. We’re going to make it.” He went back behind me, and he was very quiet. Well, he is a type eight who went to five, and I was a type two who went to eight, and we shifted roles.

Matt Schlegel:                   Wow!

Debbie Mytels:                 And that made me realize, by looking at the pattern in the Enneagram of points that you go to when you’re stressed or not, we were both very stressed on the way back, that made me realize I was a two. There are other things, too, that I learned about myself that… At one point when I was very young, I did a job to edit a doctor’s report, and I kept changing his wording a little bit, but I didn’t want to reorganize the whole thing, which it kind of really needed. And I realized I was trying to keep his style of writing and not really putting my own understanding into it. And I realized that that was a pattern in some of my other behaviors, that I wasn’t really putting myself and what I could do into situations.

So the Enneagram really helped me to see the kind of unity of all my behaviors, the shyness that I had, waiting for others to take the lead, even though I had ideas, but not putting out my ideas until later and not giving much direction to what was happening. So it helped me to understand, oh, I see what’s going on here. Okay. And it really gave me a lot more self-awareness of what I was doing.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Well, you bring up such a good point. I love that story about your hike, and I talk about this a little bit in my book, how under… When you put a team… You were a team of two, but you put a team under stress, and then we start to… Different behaviors emerge. And some people who are normally really dominant start to pull back, and while other people who are usually in the background come to the fore. And how if you get the right combination and the two/eight exemplifies a really great team dynamic, it just… You complement each other regardless of the situation. And that is such a great story.

Debbie Mytels:                 It was a great story.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. So, hey, how have you used the Enneagram in your leadership roles?

Debbie Mytels:                 I think it’s been very helpful in many ways. I think one of the things is it’s important just to recognize that it’s important to be a relationship builder. I know when I’m in a meeting, I try to recognize the contributions of everyone who’s talking. I’ve been doing a lot of Zoom meetings this past couple of years, and I try to acknowledge the comments that so-and-so made and what you just said relates to what so-and-so said and try to help people see the connections between each other. And I also try to be sure that everybody’s had a chance to be heard, because some people are very shy or just reticent, and I also want to be sure that everybody’s voices are brought into the room. So that’s one way, I think, I use the Enneagram going.

And sometimes you kind of have to remind somebody who might be a type eight or some other type that’s dominant that, “Well, thank you very much, but we haven’t yet heard from others. Let’s let them have a chance to speak.” So that’s a way that… Working with people in a meeting, it’s good to give everybody a chance.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, yeah.

Debbie Mytels:                 The other way that I’ve used it in my work is trying to find the right person for the job.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Yeah.

Debbie Mytels:                 I’ve been blessed in life to have a lot of type friends, friends who are type seven, who are the people who come up with wonderful schemes and great ideas, but you can’t really rely upon them to follow through all the time and actually do the work that needs to be done. So you’ve got to find a helper or some other type to support them, because they’re going to come up with more ideas.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right, right. Finding a complementary pair.

Debbie Mytels:                 And similarly… Yeah. If you have a bookkeeper job opening, you want somebody who’s meticulous.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes, exactly.

Debbie Mytels:                 And they may drive you crazy, but you don’t want a sloppy bookkeeper who doesn’t do a really consistent job, because it’s very important. So trying to look out for what are the needs of the job, as opposed to I like this person or I like that person. And one thing I’ve noticed a lot in working with mostly small groups and nonprofits is that people do tend to hire people like themselves, and sometimes you need to bring in that divergent set of skills. That’s really helpful.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Oh, two excellent ways to use the Enneagram. And just to get back to that communication point and making sure all voices are heard, knowing the Enneagram and knowing that if you have fives on your team, knowing that they probably know more and have studied more than anybody else on the topic.

Debbie Mytels:                 Exactly.

Matt Schlegel:                   And yet they’re just sitting there quietly letting everybody else talk, and it’s such a resource available to the team if you allow them the platform, because they’re not going to assert themselves and just inject themselves into the conversation. They need to be drawn out. And it sounds like you’ve done that masterfully, just to make sure that everybody’s voice is heard. So that’s awesome. Yeah, and then-

Debbie Mytels:                 Yeah. In some ways, I don’t even give myself a lot of credit for that. It’s like, well, of course, that’s what I naturally should do as the leader. But I recognize that it is an attribute of being a point two that is helpful to a group. That’s what I can offer.

Matt Schlegel:                   Absolutely. Absolutely. And just being Enneagram aware and knowing these different styles and you knowing your own style, because even a type two can go into that dominant mode, especially if you’re stressed.

Debbie Mytels:                 Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   So just being aware of that and just say, “Okay, I’m going to make sure everybody gets a chance to talk,” that is really great, Debbie. Well, so what advice would you give to another leader of your type, Enneagram type two?

Debbie Mytels:                 Yeah. I think that’s a really important thing to think about. One is to acknowledge what you were just saying, is really to recognize the value of the divergent points of view and that everybody can contribute, and they need to contribute because you need to hear things. When I was on one board, for example, one member of our group would always say, “This is going to go wrong. It’s got a problem there, blah, blah, blah.” And everybody’s like, “Don’t pour hot water on our beautiful idea,” but he was really telling us what we needed to pay attention to. And that was really an important point that we needed to own, or that could go wrong. So it’s important to know about that and to put that credence, give credence to those points in the room. Put them into the room. Maybe you don’t agree with them, but at least you’ve heard them, and that’s important.

I think another strength that we’ve talked about a little already too is to really recognize the strengths of a point two as a connector. I remember one time I was in a store over in Berkeley. I guess they had a whole bunch of political buttons. And one of them said, “The most radical thing you can do is introduce your friends to each other.” And I thought, “Yeah.” And I’m doing that all the time. I’m trying to connect this person with that person, because they both have similar interests, or this one is looking for a job and that one might help them, or this one has a knowledge about an issue that that one’s concerned about. So that connector thing is really important, and use it. It’s one of, I think, our strengths from this point. Another thing that I’ve learned, and this is advice for a two, I think, is don’t be shy about reaching above your station. You know?

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah.

Debbie Mytels:                 The people who have ideas that are perhaps in charge, they’re speakers at conferences or they’re people who are elected officials, they really want to be connected with. Their job is to give their advice, to be leaders, and they want to hear from you, and they want to know what you have to share too. So sometimes it’s easier to sort of, “Oh, well, I’m not important. I don’t count,” but really you have something to share, as well, as a type two. I had a friend who was not a type two. She was a nine. She knew that. And she’d always go up after a lecture and go talk to the speaker and learn something from that person and bring it back to our group. It was like, “Wow. I didn’t even think about doing that,” but I’m trying to do that.

Matt Schlegel:                   So fearless! Those nines, they are very fearless.

Debbie Mytels:                 And the last one is that I think because twos often don’t know their own feelings aren’t acknowledging them. They’re just kind of… Maybe this is a different wing, like a three, who just wants to get the job done. But I think it’s really important to, especially when dealing with something like climate change, which is an emotional problem that we’re dealing with now as humanity, is to really tap into our own feelings and try to acknowledge them. And that’s our motivation for acting, or at least mine when I think about it.

I used to work with a group called Canopy, which is a tree-planting group. And one day we were planting trees and getting started, and we used to just get the stuff out of the car and put out the equipment and set it up and give people name tags and a little introduction on how you work with planting the tree. But I thought, “I understand that today I’ve got a couple of teenage boys whose dad asked them to come as sort of a punishment for some transgression at home.” And I thought, “I’ve really got to work on the motivation here, not just let’s do it.” So I had us all gather together in a circle before we started, and I talked about my motivation for planting trees, which was to help part of nature to grow and develop and to provide for the future health and safety and oxygen for our community. And I really tried to say…

Then I had everybody go around the circle, and there was maybe, I don’t know, 15, 20 people. “Why are you here? Why are you here? Why are you here?” And that really grounded us all in the work we were doing. And I thought, “Wow, that really was a different kind of event than what we’d done before.” And it was unfortunately sort of towards the end of the planting season, but I did try to do something like that for the last couple of ones as well, because it really made a difference. And I think it was a way to use my own feelings that I might have just ignored or thought they weren’t important.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Oh, that is such a great idea. Just ground everybody in feelings and purpose at the beginning of the task and go from there. Yeah, it’s very inspiring and motivating.

Debbie Mytels:                 It was. And the two boys that were there, they did a good job too. They didn’t goof off, and I don’t think they felt it was punishment after the end. I think they felt they’d made a contribution, and we all had. Those trees are still growing, which is so exciting.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope they and you get to experience the growth of the trees and see that and remember that moment. That’s great.

Debbie Mytels:                 Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Well, thank you so much, Debbie, for joining me today and sharing your stories and your experiences. And I want to thank you very much for all of your leadership in climate and everything that you’re doing, bringing people together. And I would love to have you come back, and maybe we could talk a little bit more about your climate work and maybe dive into how your feelings are motivating you. I think that is such a powerful topic. So-

Debbie Mytels:                 Okay.

Matt Schlegel:                   Thank you again for joining me.

Debbie Mytels:                 Thank you, Matt. It was really great to talk with you too, and I admire so much the work you’re doing. I think it’s a really important thing for people to learn, so I really appreciate it. Thanks.

Matt Schlegel:                   All right. Thank you. Thanks for watching. Debbie points out that the Enneagram is the most important thing that she’s learned in her adult life, and I couldn’t agree more with that. I appreciate how she used the path of disintegration to distinguish between the two types that she was considering and finally landed on Enneagram type two as her core type. And as a leader, how she uses the Enneagram to ensure that all voices are heard on her team and that all of the different perspectives of her teammates are respected. And finally, she acknowledges the importance of feelings in leadership, especially in motivating your team and giving them a sense of purpose. If you like this, please click on the thumbs-up button and share it with others and subscribe to the channel so you can get notifications of upcoming episodes. And if you have any comments or questions, please leave them in the comment section, and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again.

 

Leading with Feelings — Interview with Climate Leader Claudia Truesdell

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Have you watched Don’t Look Up, Netflix’s metaphorical story about the climate emergency?  How are you feeling about the climate crisis?  Claudia Truesdell is a climate leader helping people come to grips with their feelings about climate change and providing guidance that helps them translate their feelings into action. In this interview, she shares how her own feelings led her on a journey to acting and leading on addressing humanity’s biggest challenge.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with highly self-aware leaders. Today, we’ll be speaking with Claudia Truesdell. Claudia is a leader in fighting climate change, and she shares how she uses feelings for both inspiration and action. Now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

Today, we’re speaking with Claudia Truesdell. Claudia is a leader on climate. She organizes in her community to bring awareness to the importance of fighting climate change, and she shows how people in her community can participate in that fight. She’s a mechanical engineering alumna from Stanford University, and she continues to engage Stanford students in her organizing. She also hosts a Climate Cafe meetup group in which participants share how they’re feeling about climate change. Welcome, Claudia.

Claudia Truesdell:

Thank you, Matt. Yeah, so nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me to talk to you today. I’m delighted.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, that’s great. I’m really looking forward to it. Why don’t we start there? Let me ask you how you are feeling about climate change?

Claudia Truesdell:

Forgive my dog. I’m sorry about that.

Matt Schlegel:

No problem.

Claudia Truesdell:

Okay. I feel worried daily. I feel anxious. I feel upset. I feel annoyed and frustrated, and I have been for a long time. This has been going on for years and quite a puzzle to me. A few years ago, I realized that even though I was feeling all these feelings, I wasn’t acting on them, and that was such a confusion to me. How could I feel these things so intently and not be dealing with the problem?

Claudia Truesdell:

Surprisingly enough, somehow, acting on the problem has made me feel not better about climate change, but better about myself and how I’m showing up in the climate struggle. It’s been immensely helpful to be active, just for my psychological wellbeing and self. So while I am still all of those things I listed earlier, I’m also much more hopeful, partly because I’m hopeful in my own ability to start acting, and it gives me hope for other people.

Claudia Truesdell:

And then, also, through this, I’ve met so many amazing people who are active and working to change, including yourself. So that part, finding the community of people working for the change, has been immensely helpful to my outlook and just my mental health.

Matt Schlegel:

Wow. Yeah. That’s very powerful. Claudia, thank you for sharing those feelings about your relationship with climate change and how that’s impacting you. I’d like to understand better how those feelings are, essentially, influencing your behaviors as a leader and how that’s influencing your direction now.

Claudia Truesdell:

That’s a great question. I’m really cognizant that there are many people out there who are equally as desperate and frustrated and worried as I am, and who are also not yet acting. I have just a firm resolution that there are these barriers, and I’ve been working to try to figure out how to remove the barriers in my work.

Claudia Truesdell:

You mentioned the Climate Cafes, and that’s an idea that came to me through the Climate Psychology Alliance. You can look them up, they’re a UK group, and there’s also Northern America Climate Psychology Alliance group, too. One of the things that they believe is that all of these feelings that we have that are so big and overwhelming, actually are in the way of us acting. They are barriers to us taking action. Because, in order to take action and to think about what we need to do and what needs to happen, we need to let in all those huge emotions, and it’s just so uncomfortable and so hard to do that, especially if the people around you are not really wanting to have that conversation yet for their own reasons, for those same reasons, actually. So, to do all that work that you need to do in order to squarely face the problem, it’s yucky and difficult.

Claudia Truesdell:

You and I actually talked recently about these kind of bouts of climate grief that are so sad, and it’s hard to do that outside of community. One of the things I’m doing is trying to form that supportive place that people can process those emotions, sit with that grief, and be heard and hear other people. We don’t talk about action in those meetings, but the goal is to get people ready to act after they’ve faced all of that. To get them to clear it, in a way, and then be able to move forward. That’s one of the ways that my having been so stuck and frustrated, not only with the situation, but with myself, is shaping what I do in my climate work.

Matt Schlegel:

That’s amazing. That is an amazing story. Thank you for doing that. You have now transitioned from those feelings into taking action, and I imagine that there are other people similarly situated that are also kind of on the cusp of doing that. What advice would you give to them at this point, in that transition, in that journey?

Claudia Truesdell:

My advice is to bring your full self to it. Bring who you are to the problem. I think one of the reasons that I took so long to act is that I didn’t see a place for myself in the big climate organizations. I wasn’t terribly comfortable going out with the signs and the protesting and possibly getting arrested, and I wasn’t that comfortable kind of writing letters to my Congresspeople. All of those kind of typical ways of acting are really powerful and really good, but even if you eventually do them, it takes a while to get there. I’ve really been trying to bring myself to this and to act in ways that are really true to myself, and also to use my network and the people in my world to bring to bear on this problem.

Claudia Truesdell:

You mentioned in your intro that I went to Stanford, and I have a relationship with that community. One of the things that I’m so looking forward to next year is we’re going to be doing a survey of transportation in Palo Alto, kind of people’s attitudes, kind of these deep ethnographic interviews around attitudes towards carbon-free transportation.

Matt Schlegel:

Wow. That’s amazing. That is amazing. You’re channeling-

Claudia Truesdell:

I won’t go into it too deeply, but I just want to point out that that is another piece of advice about bringing your whole self is also bringing your network and your interests.

Matt Schlegel:

Right.

Claudia Truesdell:

So acting through your beliefs-

Matt Schlegel:

You’re tapping into all of your networks and then channeling that into action in a situationally aware way to influence the other people in your network to also start taking action.

Claudia Truesdell:

Yeah. To influence them. Also, because you’re going to bring a unique perspective and unique ideas. It’s such a big problem that we all need to work on it, and we need all of the approaches. There’s not one best approach. We need all of them.

Matt Schlegel:

We need all of them. Yep.

Claudia Truesdell:

Yeah. You’ve got to bring yours. Bring it.

Matt Schlegel:

That’s perfect. We’ll end it here, but I feel like we’re just scratching the surface on this conversation, and I would love to have you come back and share more about some of the experiences that you’re having. Maybe when you have engaged the students more on that project, you could come back and give us an update and share more about how feelings and leadership and all of that are playing into approaching and attacking this big problem that we’re all facing.

Claudia Truesdell:

Oh, thank you. I’d love to. That would be great.

Matt Schlegel:

All right. Well, thanks again, Claudia. I really appreciate you sharing your experiences and your stories today.

Claudia Truesdell:

Thank you, Matt. Thank you so much for doing this work that you’re doing and bringing these stories out. I can’t wait to listen to your series and learn about what everyone else is doing. I’m so excited for it. Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

All right. Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks again for watching. I really found Claudia’s story very powerful about coming to grips with her own feelings, processing them, and then using those for inspiration and action, and how she went through that transition and got to a point where she felt like she could bring her whole self to contributing to solving the big problem that she’s trying to tackle, climate change. The advice that she’s giving for other leaders is to bring your whole self to the problem, and that includes feelings as well as your inspiration, your thoughts and your actions. She’s bringing all three of those, and that’s really important for showing leadership in any situation.

Matt Schlegel:

If you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel and get notifications of future episodes. If you have any questions, leave them in comments, and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again, so much, for watching.

Enneagram Type 8 Leadership Path of Growth — Interview with Julie Chendes

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Julie Chendes, CEO of Next Level Strategies, became familiar with the Enneagram around 18 years ago and shares stories of how she used it to build effective teams at work. She discusses movement along the paths of integration and disintegration for Type 8. She shares how Type 8s and Type 2s work well together. And she gives great advice to Type 8 leaders using a rock and roll song reference!

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool, and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’m speaking with Julie Chendes, CEO of Next Level Strategies. Julie became familiar with the Enneagram about 18 years ago, and shares stories of how she’s used it to build effective teams at work. And now for the conversation.

Matt Schlegel:

I’m delighted to be speaking today with Julie Chendes. Julie is the owner, founder, and CEO of Next Level Strategies. An HR consulting firm specializing in serving small and medium-sized businesses with HR support like employee relations, recruiting, training, payroll, and compliance. Julie’s led Next Level Strategies for nearly 20 years now. And Julie is familiar with the Enneagram, and I’m eager to learn how she’s used this powerful tool, both with her team and her clients. Julie, thank you so much for being with me today.

Julie Chendes:

Thanks for having me, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, it’s great to see you. I’m so eager to hear how you’ve used the Enneagram. But before we start, let me ask how and when did you first discover the Enneagram?

Julie Chendes:

It was about 18 years ago. I had just started the business and I was doing some networking. And in the course of my networking, I came across a guy who is an Enneagram coach. And through him, and just through being at the same kind of happy hours, I learned about the Enneagram through him, and it resonated with me, so I learned more.

Matt Schlegel:

Nice, nice. Yeah, it sounds like something I do, too. I’ll just start, “Hey, do you know the Enneagram?” It was just kind of an informal thing that got you kicked off on your journey.

Julie Chendes:

Yep.

Matt Schlegel:

Oh, that is great. And then as you started to use it, what did you discover about yourself that you didn’t know before, or appreciate before?

Julie Chendes:

Probably not just about myself, but one of the things I think that is so interesting about the Enneagram is, how a person’s personality evolves and devolves when things are going well or things aren’t going as well. And I really saw myself in that. Being an eight, when things are going my way as they are now, I’m the most generous person, the drinks are on me, very expansive, and sort of even got like a little bit of a hippy vibe.

Julie Chendes:

And when things sort of aren’t going well, even though I have a pretty outgoing personality, I can get very quiet and very kind of reclusive, and I like to be left alone with my thoughts. And I like to have minimal stimulation when too much is going… And it’s so typical of an eight. And I didn’t really realize all of that about myself until I found out more about the Enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. Yeah. So you’re talking about the movement from eight into two when you’re feeling secure, so the helper two, and then when things aren’t going your way, then you turn into that quiet five. And you’re just looking and observing, and trying to figure out how to get things back on track that.

Julie Chendes:

Yes. Yes.

Matt Schlegel:

Oh, that is great. So you could see that behavior in yourself. And this is one of the things that I personally love about the Enneagram, that differentiates it from some of the other systems is that, it really speaks to how our behaviors can change over time, you know?

Julie Chendes:

Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

So you talked about that security and insecurity movement. And it also speaks to maturity and immaturity as well, right?

Julie Chendes:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Schlegel:

As we get more mature, we start to move more along our path of integration. And most other systems are just like a static snapshot. And the Enneagram really shows how we’re not always the same, it’s not just steady, it’s, we’re constantly changing and evolving depending on our circumstances. So yeah, that’s very great observation.

Julie Chendes:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), exactly.

Matt Schlegel:

So now, how have you used the Enneagram with your team at your company? Or, have you used it with your team or with your clients? How have you used it?

Julie Chendes:

Not as much as I’d like, honestly. Back in the day, I had my right hand person who’s still with me, take the Enneagram, and lucky for us, no surprise, she’s a two. And so two and eight get along famously.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes.

Julie Chendes:

And as I look back, I think several of my kind of right hand people over the years have been twos. So even before I knew what I was attracted to, I was attracting really complimentary personality types to me. So I had her do it. And then we had another consultant at the time, and she refused to do it because she said she wanted to be mysterious. So it is what it is.

Julie Chendes:

And I used it in my personal life with my then fiance. We did a little coaching around the Enneagram and our types, and how to get along better. Because what would happen is, we got into an argument, all of a sudden I sort of shut down and I want to be left alone, and he couldn’t understand why I needed to be left alone in the middle of conflict. And so it was very helpful for both of us to understand each other more and the different types. But I haven’t used it as much at work as I’d like.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. And so a couple of things. It’s great how you identified how the eight and the two are really complementary. Actually, I talk about this in my book. I have a chapter on groupings that often work together. And one of them is the two, the eight and the five. And so it was so funny because when you said, oh, I want to be mysterious, the first thing that I thought of is, oh, probably a five. Which is exactly… It’s a perfect combination. Because really, you have one person from the instinctual, one from the feeling, and one from the head group. So you make a super complimentary team together.

Julie Chendes:

Good point. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, that is awesome. Well, so now having used it and understanding yourself, what advice would you give to other leaders of your Enneagram type, type eight?

Julie Chendes:

Hmm. Well, I guess for me, and I think for all leaders. We can’t control everything in life, and we can’t control everything at work. And we certainly can’t control people. And so even though our happy place is sort of around control, I would advise all of the eights, but all leaders in general, to always make sure that you got yourself surrounded by people that you trust, that you can delegate to, that can… Are given the opportunity to exceed your expectations, and not swoop in, not try to control.

Julie Chendes:

What’s the old song by… Shoot, who is it, Kansas? No. “Hold on loosely, but don’t let it go. If you cling too tightly, you’re going to lose control,” right? So that would be my advice to the eights.

Matt Schlegel:

Oh, that is great. Right. Because your instincts are kind of telling you, this is what we need to do, and you want to kind of get in there and start to guide everybody in that direction. But sometimes you just need to back up a little bit, and let people do it their way. And yeah, that’s great advice, Julie.

Julie Chendes:

Or, make mistakes if they need to, or have their own opinion or whatever. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, yeah. Just let people show up the way they want to show up, and that ends up making a more powerful team, right?

Julie Chendes:

Yes, for sure.

Matt Schlegel:

If everybody is accepting each other’s style and way that they contribute. So yeah, that is great advice, Julie. Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories. And I think we probably have a lot more to talk about here, I have a whole bunch of more questions I want to ask, but we’re out of time. But I hope you can come back and we can continue the conversation another time.

Julie Chendes:

Yeah. Thanks Matt. Thanks for having me.

Matt Schlegel:

All right. Thank you.

Julie Chendes:

Interesting stuff.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks so much for watching. Julie made some great points about how she used the Enneagram’s path of integration and disintegration, to really understand how her style changes depending on her stress and security levels.

Matt Schlegel:

And she gave examples of her movement towards type two in security and type five in insecurity. And then she shared that with her teammates, so that they understood also how her style might vary, and that just helped everybody understand each other.

Matt Schlegel:

She also identified how the type two and type eight form a highly effective team. I have seen this time and time again in the workplace. And I talk about it in chapter seven of my book, Teamwork 9.0, and this is one of the powerful combinations of teams. And then finally, I really loved how she pulled out the reference to the 38 Special song, Hold on Loosely. She makes such a great point that if type eights try to control too much, squeeze too tightly, they can actually lose control. And I thought that was a great example.

Matt Schlegel:

So if you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel, and get notifications of future episodes. And if you have any questions, please leave them in the comments and I’ll get to them as soon as possible. Thanks again.

 

 

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