Matt Schlegel

Education law attorney and former Seattle public school board member, Jill Geary, is an Enneagram Type 7 leader. Jill shares how the Enneagram provides insights into the interpersonal dynamics that arise on school boards and how she used those insights to navigate disputes and achieve favorable outcomes.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’ll be speaking with Jill Geary. Jill is an attorney who specializes in education law. She served on the Seattle Public School Board and now she’s getting an advanced degree in education policy in London. I’m looking forward to learning how she used the Enneagram as a leader while she was on the Seattle Public School Board and as an education advocate. If you enjoy these conversations, please click on the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel. And now for the conversation.

I’m delighted to be speaking today with Jill Geary. Jill’s an attorney who specializes in education law. After practicing law and serving as an administrative law judge specializing in cases for children with special needs she was elected and served on the Seattle Public School Board. She’s now getting an advanced degree in education policy at UCL’s Institute of education in London. Full disclosure. Jill’s my sister. And she’s been with me on my engram journey from the very beginning. Today I’m eager to hear how she has used Enneagram in her leadership positions on the Seattle Public School Board, and as an education advocate. Jill, thank you so much for joining me today.

Jill Geary:                           Oh, thank you for having me Matt. I’m really looking forward to this.

Matt Schlegel:                   Awesome. So, we know how you discovered the Enneagram, it was through our many conversations as I was learning it. And I just so appreciate all the great conversations because you gave me a lot of insight in to Enneagram type 7 as we were having those conversations. And I so appreciate you embracing it and really taking it to heart and studying it yourself. And so I’m really interested as you were learning the Enneagram what did you discover about yourself that you may not have understood or appreciated before?

Jill Geary:                           Well, I think if you recall, you were fairly convinced initially that I was a type 6 along with you and our mother. And I think my personal resistance, it’s not that I didn’t appreciate that I had 6 traits and having been raised and grown up with a lot of 6 energy around me, I felt very resistant. And so I kept going back to the Enneagram and trying to figure out what about me was different from you that made sense.

And so, in just realizing that I was a 7 gave me permission to let go of this idea that I’m supposed to worry about things all the time which wasn’t as comfortable, and I felt created a lot more conflict even within the family dynamic. That once I could embrace that I was a 7 and therefore was going to prioritize adventure and fun with less concern about the risk involved, not that I’m entirely risk adverse, it just freed me up to be more comfortable in a lot of different dynamics. Just understanding that that was a priority for me, that was comfortable. And it was okay not to carry the worry that didn’t make me irresponsible, let’s say.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah, that is so fascinating because you grew up in a 6 household. And so you were kind of carrying that 6-ness with you in spite of your 7-ness, which created a load for you. And so, just by understanding those dynamics you were able to let that go. That is really great. That’s great.

Jill Geary:                           Well, and we’re in a similar triad. Correct? So-

Matt Schlegel:                   That’s right.

Jill Geary:                           We’re going to have some underlying dynamics that are very comfortable between us. And so it creates a lot of understanding and a lot of symbiosis, let’s say. So it’s easy to see where we’re similar and yet there’s that tension. So it was good to get that identified.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yes. Yeah. So I want to get to how you’ve used the Enneagram in your leadership roles. So, I remember having quite a number of conversations about the dynamics when you were on the public school board. So what was that like for you and how did you feel like you were using the Enneagram in that role?

Jill Geary:                           I think what it does for me is, because I want people to get along, and I want us to move forward in a way that everybody is as happy as they possibly can be. And so, I think where I would use it most frequently is to help people work through the conflicts that seem to be causing them emotional difficulty, as opposed to you’re always going to have philosophical differences, you’re going to reason through things or have different goals, different priorities. But when people seem to be getting stuck and emotionally invested in it, it was helpful to me to think about the Enneagram.

And even in a more general way, like the idea that if there are all these different types of people that have these inherent, even if it’s nine and we know it’s nine plus, that just talking to others about the fact that they’re feeling conflict, maybe not because of the issue that is presented but because of how they’re processing or reasoning through it. And they’re feeling that they’re not being heard or understood because they’re not actually hearing and understanding the perspective or point of view of the other person. And so, even that without having to come to a conclusion about the number that I was working with, just the idea of difference that can be so deeply held and coming from different points of view, I found helped me to work people through so that they could move forward and we could function better as a larger group.

And we had a lot of conflict, but I would say that in many ways, I don’t know if it was my contribution in particular, but I think at the end of the day, we continued to work fairly successfully as a board during my tenure even with some pretty strong disagreements. But I think that’s one of the best things that the Enneagram has given to me because I am so driven by this idea that I want people to enjoy the work that they’re engaged in. I feel like that is a successful dynamic. And so, helping them to get to that point of comfort, if not joy, moves things forward for everybody.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. Well, that is such a good point because so many people just get caught up in their own perspective and just don’t understand why people don’t understand what they’re saying, because it makes so much sense to them. And Enneagram gives us this understanding that, well, your perspective is only one of nine distinct ways of looking at the world. And so other people are looking at it completely differently. And just that understanding is helpful so that you don’t create a contentious environment when some misunderstanding comes up, but then taking it beyond that and saying, “Oh, okay. Now I’m starting to understand how they’re looking at it. And if I reframe in a way that suits their perspective they’ll feel understood and we can move forward and everybody will be happy,” which is ultimately what the 7 wants.

Jill Geary:                           Right. And when you’re in an educational institution you’re dealing with a lot of teachers. And I can’t say what they are as a type but they tend to be people who are bringing a lot of emotion into the workplace. And at a public school level, that’s what you want. You want these adults that you’re sending your children to, to be emotionally responsive to your own children. And that in the context of leadership, it was really important to continually remind people that we were dealing with a large group, a large workforce that by and large is very emotional in how they process things, and rightfully so. They’re engaged in education, which is an intellectual pursuit, but they have to bring both their brain and their heart to the table. And so, it was just really important to me that everybody on the team continued to be reminded that we were impacting real people who perceive things in many different ways even as we were making decisions from a very high level.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. Yeah. So you bring up another great point. The Enneagram talks about the three triads. Right? The gut people, the heart people, and the head people. You and I are in that head group. And so we’re looking at things rationally, logically, but we know and appreciate the value of people who communicate emotionally, especially with our kids, making those emotional connections with them that are going to give them the trust and security to want to engage and move forward with education. And so that is so great that you saw that and recognized that in your conversations with teachers.

Jill Geary:                           Yeah. I know. That was very important. And that was nicely put. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, right. Nice. Well, so, just one last question before we wrap up. What advice would you give other leaders of your Enneagram type 7 as they start on their Enneagram journey?

Jill Geary:                           As they start on their Enneagram journey. Okay. As I start in there, I feel like from a leadership perspective as a 7, I tend to be one who’s continually looking at a lot of things at once. I like a situation where you’re putting out the fires, you’re inundated with information, you are handling a lot of different people. It keeps you excited and engaged. And I think that it’s really important for the 7 in order to be successful to make sure that they know who the people are around them who are going to remind them of the organization, the executive functioning of setting a goal and continuing to work towards that goal.

So I think it’s really important for 7s to have clear objectives for the work that they’re doing. Because as they’re moving around and exciting their brain with all these other things, you want to have a real follow through line to constantly test, is this energy somehow at some point going to come back to that line and move me forward in the direction that I ultimately want to go, or is it going to pull me away down some other fascinating path but maybe not the path that I want to be on now?

So that you don’t end up exhausting yourself and you don’t end up feeling defeated, because you never feel like you accomplish something even as you’re enjoying the process, you eventually want to be able to look back and see that you’ve got to where you wanted to go. And I think that’s one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned as a 7 when I feel myself being drawn away into other fascinating things to continue to remember that I do have a through line, I need to test things against that objective and make a decision and pull myself back in.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, that is so well said. Yeah. You’re speaking exactly to the 7s love for doing new, different, fun things. And how while that’s delightful and lovely, it can distract you from a big goal that you’re trying to achieve and take away energy from getting you to that goal. So, wow. That’s wonderful advice, Jill. Thank you so much.

Jill Geary:                           You’re welcome.

Matt Schlegel:                   And thank you for sharing your stories with us today. And I hope that you’ll come back in the future and share some new stories with us as how you’re using the Enneagram as a leadership tool.

Jill Geary:                           Oh, well, thank you. Thank you for having me on. It’s been a pleasure.

Matt Schlegel:                   All right. Thank you. Thanks again for watching. I really enjoyed how Jill described the challenge for Enneagram type 7 leaders to maintain enough energy to get to the goal line of the main goals. Enneagram type 7s can want to devote energy into new areas, new fun things that come along, and if they don’t take care they may not leave enough energy to get to the goal line of the main goal that they’re trying to achieve. And I thought she did a great job of describing that. If you found this helpful, please click on the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel, and get notifications for future episodes. And if you have any questions, please leave them in the comment section and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

In this inaugural interview of the Enneagram Leadership Path of Growth Series, Marketing and Business Development leader, Michael Kornet, shares his personal and leadership path of growth as an Enneagram Type 6.  Michael reveals his own communication style and shares important tips for how to communicate well with Enneagram Type 8 co-workers.

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for joining me in conversations with business leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development.

Today I will be speaking with Michael Kornet, a marketing and business development leader who has been using the Enneagram for about 10 years.

If you enjoy these conversations, please click the thumbs up button and subscribe to the channel.

And now for our conversation…

I am delighted to have Michael cornet here with us today. Michael is a marketing and business development expert who helps companies develop a strategic vision and grow the business around that vision until very recently, Michael served as the executive for vis RT group, which acquired new tech, where he served as vice president and general manager for new Tech’s NDI business. I first met Michael over 20 years ago when we worked together at Replay TV. As Replay TV’s vice president of business development for media, he helps secure Series B financing and forged Replay TV’s strategic relationships with networks, studios, and advertisers. We also overlapped for a while at NewTek. Michael is a dear friend, and I’m so happy that he can join us here today. Michael, welcome.

Michael Kornet:

Thank You so much, Matt. It’s really cool to be here with you. And it’s funny you’re listening to the background there, it used to be where titles and I remember graduating from UCLA and all I really cared about was getting my first business card with my on it and wearing a three-piece suit and flying out a plane with my briefcase and it was all about that business card. And, it’s funny because now titles, to me really mean nothing. And what really matters is your purpose. As a person and what you want to do in life. And hopefully, that is something that makes a difference in the world. But in terms of titles, things have really changed.

Matt Schlegel:

Well, you have some really great titles, so I just wanted to make sure I got those in. So hey, we’re here to talk about the Enneagram and leadership and I am so happy that you agreed to come on. Cause I know you’ve been using the Enneagram probably for around 10 years now. So maybe you could just start off and give us a little background about how you came to know the Enneagram.

Michael Kornet:

Sure. Well first let me just preface by saying that, I’m a little reticent about this kind of thing normally talking about my personal stuff, and Mixing that, especially with business is not something that I usually do or usually comfortable with. But I do think that this is really an important subject and, because I’ve… You’ve been such a great help to me over the years and I really want to, see if I can help as well. Anybody else that’s out there. I got lucky because I met this guy named Matt Schlegel many years ago and back then at Replay TV, I saw, here’s this hard worker, kind, you know, he’s good.

Michael Kornet:

But then later on, many years later on what I recognized was, there’s some wisdom here and there’s an expertise in business relationships that turned out to be really, really valuable. And you came back into my life, as you said, at new tech and it was just the perfect time for you to show up. And so I kind of, when you say, well, how did Annie grams, come into your life? I just kind of put that under the moniker of the universe provides. It was just  for you to show up and I’m grateful for it.

Matt Schlegel:

Very cool. So as you became familiar with the Enneagram and if you would like to share your type what did you discover about yourself as you were learning about that Enneagram and your type specifically?

Michael Kornet:

Yeah, I mean so just a quick background, there was a big organizational change, and if anybody else out there has gone through that or is going through that right now, it can be a very tumultuous and sort of… You almost feel like you’re in a rock and a hard place sometimes, and you have some real gut checks that you have to do. Like, do you want to leave? Or do you want to stay, stick it out and make something worthwhile of it all? And, it’s funny because there was another executive there, that went through the same organizational change. And we were both reporting to the president at the time and then it switched to the COO and he ended up leaving, and I ended up staying and sticking it out and wanting to make it work.

Michael Kornet:

And, here’s the good news that he actually ended up being very successful on his own and leaving by leaving. And I ended up being very successful, staying and making it work. So the good news is that there’s options for these, for anyone going through this there’s options and you can make it work either way. By staying, what I gained? First of all, I learned a lot, but what I gained was a lot of respect internally, to turn something like that around and make it successful internally within the organization with the other executives there who knew what was going on. I gained a lot of respect. And that means a lot when you’re in an organization with a lot of people that you respect as well. So what I really learned was one that I don’t get right to the point, have you noticed?

Matt Schlegel:

You don’t say. We need all the contexts, don’t we? Now what Enneagram type is that?

Michael Kornet:

And so, yes, I see all sides to it. I have to see it up and down, inside and out. And so it’s funny because I didn’t realize that about myself, which is strange. You would think you would, but I really didn’t until my supervisor who I guess would be in an eight. So very instinctual, just has all the instincts is, just acts on stuff immediately and gets right to the point. And, I wrote an email once that I CC’d him on. And he immediately called me up and said, that person that gets that email is not going to know at all what you were talking about or what you wanted from them. And so that was a real, clear indication that things were very, very different in the way we approached things.

Michael Kornet:

As it turns out, and that happened a few times. And as it turns out, I was actually still very successful in doing those emails that way. And he recognized that. And so it then became almost something of a laughing matter. So it wasn’t butting heads or anything. It was more of, okay, that’s funny, we’re so different, but you’re still really successful in doing it that way, but I would never do it that way.  That was, putting up a mirror to me was really, really interesting, that things could be so different and that I was not right to the point on the very first sentence of an email.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. I mean, it’s really amazing how, each Enneagram style has a communication style associated with it, a preferred communication style and how by knowing your own style and knowing the style of the other Enneagram types, you can tune your style to perfectly match up with the style of the person you’re trying to communicate to. And so that you just, you’re highlighting the fact that your style is perfectly tuned for communicating with the 6 while communicating with other types, you may have to make those adjustments.

Michael Kornet:

Yeah. And that’s a good point. And I also felt like when I did that, I still had to be authentic. So I still had to be myself, but if I was cognizant of it, then I could address it a little bit better, even still being myself. Does that make sense?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. Well, that’s great, Michael. And so just one last question, and thank you again so much for being here, but I’d love for you to share with other leaders who, particularly, if they’re Enneagram type 6 leaders, what advice would you give them?

Michael Kornet:

So I would just say, use your strengths. Don’t worry so much about… This is just my, so I’m no expert, but I would, I didn’t feel like I wanted to worry so much about my weaknesses there, but just really leverage the strengths that I had and know that if you’re successful, then things will work out. Even if the relationships are very, very different that if you can still figure out a way to be successful at what you’re doing, you’ll be okay. And it’s kind of like I had a boss a long, long time ago who had a wonderful saying that said “When the numbers are up, all problems go away.” And that’s kind of how I felt there where, just be successful, be true, and things will work out.

Matt Schlegel:

And maybe you could just elaborate a little bit on where you think your strengths are, what strengths did you lean on as you were going through that?

Michael Kornet:

Yeah. So mine were relationships and the kind of deeper caring about. So I focused on third-party relationships, which  a lot of what my role was and their success. And so while we, while the business unit really needed to grow, and there were revenues involved with that, if the focus was more on their success, rather than the dollar signs, then I was much more successful in that way. And I was really true to that. And I think that, that was probably the biggest factor in the success of NDI in the beginning. And so, and while an eight might be much more, let’s track the numbers, let’s do all that kind of stuff. For me, it was, this will happen over time. If I just show that I’m here to help them be successful and because they’re successful, we’ll be successful. And that worked really, really well.

Matt Schlegel:

That’s fantastic. So really leveraging off of your strength, your ability to make strong relationships is the strength that you use to kind of carry you throughout your success it sounds like.

Michael Kornet:

Yeah. And I’m a, one of my hobbies is tennis. And so I have a analogy there where, if you have a really strong forehand and maybe your backhand is not quite as good, you could spend hours and hours just practicing your backhand and trying to improve it to the level of your forehand. Or you can take that strength that you have and improve that even more as a weapon and just run around the backhand every once in a while, if you can. Right? And so, and I think that you’d be a lot more successful there than spending all that time, trying to get the weakness up to where your strength was.

Matt Schlegel:

And you know what, you could probably say the same thing about your Enneagram type too. I think a lot of people try to compensate for their Enneagram type, by trying to build up strengths in other areas when they have all of these latent strengths right there at their disposal. And it’s really great that you were able to recognize those and tap into them and be successful. So, Michael, I just want to thank you so much for being here today. I know, like you said, it took some courage to do this, and I really appreciate you doing that. And I hope that over time, I can have you come back and share more of your insights. So thank you again, Michael.

Michael Kornet:

I would love to. Thank you for everything that you’ve done it’s been such a tremendous help in my career. And I appreciate it.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks.

Michael Kornet:

Okay. See you Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

Thanks for watching.

If you found this helpful, please click the thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel and get notifications of future episodes.

If you have any questions, please leave them in the comments section and I will respond as soon as I can.

Thanks again!