Matt Schlegel

Every teammate brings a distinct energy to the team, and the team leader – like the conductor of an orchestra – directs the team members to create successful outcomes.  Author and Assistant Professor of Creative Writing Brynn Saito is an Enneagram Type 4 leader.  Of all Enneagram types, Type 4s may be most in tune with the emotional energy that each teammate brings to the team, and Brynn uses her knowledge of the Enneagram to direct those energies in the most productive ways. She also shares how the Enneagram has become so integrated into her processing that it’s become intuitive—representing movement along her path of integration towards Enneagram Type 1.  You will enjoy this interview with a creative Type 4 leader.

Please click on the YouTube video’s Thumbs Up and subscribe to the channel to get notifications of future episodes—thanks, I appreciate it!

Find more about Brynn and her work here:  https://brynnsaito.com/

[Video Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:                   Thanks for joining me in conversations with leaders who are using the Enneagram as a leadership tool and a tool for personal growth and development. Today, I’m speaking with Brynn Saito, an author and an Assistant Professor of Creative Writing at California State University at Fresno. Brynn has also held various leadership positions at the California Institute of Integral Studies. And as an Enneagram Type Four leader, she shares how she uses both her feelings and her intuition with her team. And now for the conversation. Today, I’m speaking with Brynn Saito. Brynn is an author and is currently Assistant Professor of Creative Writing at California State University at Fresno. Her two books of poetry are Power Made Us Swoon and The Palace of Contemplating Departure. Brynn has also held various leadership positions at the California Institute of Integral Studies. And I’m so delighted to be speaking with you today, Brynn. Thank you for joining me.

Brynn Saito:                        Thank you for having me, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:                   It’s great to have you here. So let me start off by asking how and when did you first discover the Enneagram?

Brynn Saito:                        I discovered it through a mutual friend, Roger Morimoto, who now is, I guess he’s directing a new spiritual life foundation project and program. But when I met Roger, he was a pastor. He was the pastor of the church I was raised in here in Fresno, California, the United Japanese Christian Church. And yeah, I was lucky to cross paths with someone like Roger, because I was always interested in spirituality and religion. And I have a Buddhist father and a Christian mother, and so I was exposed to lots of different religious cultures growing up. But Roger, of course, introduced all these other kinds of things to us as young people, including the Enneagram. So I believe I was in high school when I first learned about the Enneagram.

And similar to the workshops you’ve led and Roger has led, we would sit in a circle in the church fellowship hall and he’d introduce this personality system. And we’d talk about our different personality quirks, and we’d learn about all the numbers. And I think being 14 years old, 15 years old and being a Four on the Enneagram, it was very helpful for me at the time because I just, probably like a lot of young people, just wrestled with a lot of feelings and hormones and situations and struggles. And being introduced to a psychological system that kind of gave me a starting point for how to move through the world and think about myself and think about others was really helpful. So I was very young when it was introduced to me and continued to kind of explore it as an adult.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. Well, that is so fascinating. I mean, it’s fantastic that you were exposed to it that early on and how it helped you kind of navigate those turbulent years as a teenager, especially. Teenagers have a lot of feelings and emotions they are going through and amplified on top of that is, being an Enneagram Type Four, just all that much more emotion that you have to process. So that’s great. So as you were discovering the Enneagram, what is it that you learned about yourself that you may not have known before?

Brynn Saito:                        I think a big one, I remember Roger used to tell me this too, was you are not your feelings. And that was a big one I think for those of us on the feeling triad and for the Fours. I would identify so close with all the big feelings I was having, and I would feel sort of stuck or beholden to them or trapped or just this feeling was never going to go away. And it would just kind of consume me. And so I think the Enneagram allowed me to just take a step back and sort of see outside of my feelings, but also just my personality and my reactions.

Later, I became more and more interested in Buddhism and Zen Buddhism in particular and all those themes of non-attachment and equanimity. I think I had learned early on maybe with the Enneagram and striving for that, especially as a Four, I think has been helpful to kind of move towards equanimity or move towards a sense of kind of balance and detachment from sort of the intensity of my inner world. So that was probably one of the most helpful things and continues to be, I’d say.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it just allows you that perspective that helps you put your feelings into context in a way that you can look at them more objectively rather than just swimming in it.

Brynn Saito:                        Yes. That’s a good way to put it. Swimming in it.

Matt Schlegel:                   Wow. Right. That’s kind of the way I visualize Fours is just swimming through this sea of feelings.

Brynn Saito:                        Yeah, pretty much. You could be a poet. You could be a poet.

Matt Schlegel:                   Well, if I take one of your classes, then maybe I can. So tell me, how have you used your knowledge of the Enneagram in your leadership roles?

Brynn Saito:                        That’s a great question. Until we started talking about this interview, it wasn’t something I had thought about. I think I had used it more intuitively or just used it kind of subconsciously even. When I interact with people, when I meet people, I think I was on a just subconscious level sort of thinking about what their type might be and how to best kind of create different context for them to grow and to grow as an employee and as a person. But a lot of that I think was just kind of intuitive. I didn’t realize I was even kind of doing it until I started thinking about this interview and sort of reflecting on some of your work. But yeah, I think I do that. I think I kind of, I do start to wonder what people’s types are and that probably informs maybe different projects we collaborate on or different roles I assign or different gatherings or programs we do.

I might think, “Oh, it’d be really great to have a Seven here to kind of help lead this or do the opening. That Seven energy. Or somebody like a Five or a Six, very methodical, I maybe might have them work with different documents I need a close read.” Just different minds kind of suited for different tasks. And I don’t do it too consciously, but I think over the years, I have been working with it in that subconscious way, especially I guess too navigating conflicts and thinking about how to facilitate those conversations. Yeah. Some of that I think has come into play for me.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. You’ve been using it. You’ve internalized it since it was a part of your youth. You’ve probably just internalized it to the point where it’s almost natural. The way that you describe how you think about working with teams, it’s almost like you’re the conductor of an orchestra, right? It’s like, “Oh, I need this instrument here and this instrument here.” And you’re just getting everybody to move into a space where they can naturally flourish, and it sounds like it’s almost become instinctual for you.

Brynn Saito:                        I think so. And maybe that is a factor of just having been introduced to it so young in those formative years, because I think it became a helpful tool, both in my work setting but also of course in relationships and with family. And yeah, I think I had sort of internalized it early on. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. That’s fascinating. Well, so what advice would you give to other Enneagram Type Four leaders who might just be coming to the Enneagram now? And what advice would you give them for how they might want to incorporate it into their lives?

Brynn Saito:                        Something for myself, I think as a Four, I realized I struggled with was taking things really personally, just being so sensitive. And when I’ve been in different leadership positions, I realized I had to think more like an Eight or like a Three and kind of hold the vision and not make it about myself and my feelings. So I remember different instances. When you’re the director or when you’re the leader or the CEO or whatever, you get criticism and you get feedback and you get pushback and there’s conflict. And being such a sensitive person, a poet, a creative, a Four, initially, that was just so hard for me. I just would shrivel up inside, and I’d go home and I’d feel real despondent.

And like, “Oh my gosh, everyone hates me. And I’m doing so bad and I feel so guilty.” All that Four shame, guilt stuff. But I think using the Enneagram as a tool to both assess myself in those situations and then think about other people, again, helped me find that distance. And just that I think that strategy of acting like different numbers or sort of putting on that Eight hat, it’s like, “Okay, what would an Eight do in this situation? They wouldn’t care. They would just move forward with the vision.” And if you feel like you have the right answer or right way, just go for it. And so that practice of trying to kind of integrate and try on and play with the different personalities, that’s been really helpful for me as a leader I believe.

Matt Schlegel:                   Right. Right. Yeah. The Type Four has the connection to the instinctive group through Type One. So the path of integration of Fours is to the Type One. And it was really interesting how it almost sounds like you’re tapping into those instincts as you’re working with teams, and then you’re also using the emotional distance that you can access from Type One when you get to the point where you’re just working on principles, not emotions. And that also sounds like a movement towards a Type One type of dynamic.

Brynn Saito:                        That must be it. I think that’s what’s happening. Yeah. I like that, the prince moving towards those principles and ideas and standards as a guiding force versus just, “Oh, this feels good or bad or I feel this or that.” Yeah. That’s it.

Matt Schlegel:                   Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that is so interesting. Well, thank you, Brynn, so much for sharing your experiences and your stories with us today. I really appreciate the conversation.

Brynn Saito:                        Thank you, Matt. And thanks for all the amazing work you’re continuing to do with the Enneagram. And it’s just so exciting to see the different programs coming through and very happy to have been here today. Thank you.

Matt Schlegel:                   Oh, thank you. Thank you. It’s a complete delight. Thanks. Thanks for watching. Brynn learned the Enneagram as a teenager, so it’s fascinating to see how the tools become so integrated into her processing. I appreciated how she shared her journey about rising above her feelings so that they don’t define her, which represents fantastic growth for an Enneagram Type Four. I also noted how the Enneagram had become so integrated into her processing that it’s almost become a part of her intuition. I think this represents motion along the path of integration towards Enneagram Type One. And finally, I like her description about the energy that her teammates of various Enneagram types bring to a project and how she can use those energies like the conductor directs the musicians in an orchestra. So if you like this, please click on the thumbs up and subscribe to the channel to get notifications of future episodes. And if you have any comments, please leave them in the comment section, and I’ll respond as soon as I can. Thanks again.

 

Honored to be a guest on the Lead to Succeed podcast with Rebecca Jenkins in which we discuss leaders who are leading with self-awareness and how that helps them better communicate and build trust with their teams.

Find the podcast here:
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/lead-to-succeed/id1521166867

Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubGVhZHRvc3VjY2VlZC50b2RheS9mZWVkLnhtbA

Spotify:  https://open.spotify.com/show/5dUTcR1xq1Zp723ZonLRal

Learn more about Rebecca Jenkins here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rebeccajenkins-rjen/

[Transcript]

Rebecca Jenkins:

Welcome to our Lead To Succeed podcast, where we share leadership and business growth insights, both from our own experiences and that of our guests. We’re the hosts. I’m Rebecca Jenkins, founder of RJEN, helping companies to grow by finding, gaining, and growing the best clients.

Callum Jenkins:

And I’m Callum, sharing my perspectives from both being at an entrepreneur and working in a variety of different companies. Whether you lead a team or a business, you’ll find practical tips, inspirational insights, and ideas, as we discuss a wide range of leadership topics. So with that, here’s today’s episode.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Hi everyone. We are delighted to have Matt Schlegel with us today. Now, Matt has a really interesting background to share with us. He is an author and he is passionate about working with leaders and teams to improve their performance. But it all starts with them being very self-aware. So Matt, a big welcome to you. Thank you very much to joining us today on our podcast. Please, please.

Matt Schlegel:

Delighted to be here.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Thank you. You’re in the States, please do a brief intro.

Matt Schlegel:

All right. Well, thanks again for having me speak today. I’m just so delighted to be here. Yeah, I started out as an engineer, and at some point my boss came to me and said, “Hey Matt, we want you to become a manager.” And I’m like, “Why do you want me to become a manager? I don’t know anything about managing people, I only know about leading electrons.” And my boss said, “Don’t worry, you’ll be fine.” Well, I wasn’t fine. I was worried. And I started to study everything I could get my hands on in terms of leadership tools and books. And as I went through that journey, I discovered this tool called the Enneagram. And being the engineer that I am, I like to take things apart and put it back together and see how it works.

Matt Schlegel:

And no matter how much I sliced and diced and dissected the Enneagram, it just really held up as a robust system, which appealed to my engineering senses. And I started using it both as a tool for personal self-awareness, then I started to use it as a tool for helping me better communicate with my team and getting my team to work better together. And so it’s a fantastic journey and it’s such a powerful tool, which is why I ended up writing a book about my experiences, and sharing that with other leaders and aspiring leaders, to help them on their journey to becoming a self-aware team leader.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Let’s hear a little bit more about Enneagram and exactly what it is. So I’m familiar with DISC, Harrison Assessments and Myers-Briggs, so can you give us some context of where that sits in amongst those? And really we’re talking about understanding personality types maybe, but maybe it’s more than that.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. So yeah, so there are many tools out there to help teams become self-aware. Now, a lot of these tools, let me just use DISC as an example. When you’re working with a team, one of the things that you just want teams to come away with is that understanding that not everybody thinks the way that you do. That other people have different approaches and different perspectives, and they’re not wrong, and your way of looking at the world isn’t the only, and right way to look at the world. And let’s have an understanding of the value that each of these perspectives brings to teams and to teamwork. And by having that understanding, you build more trust in your team and you build just more cooperation and you lower some of the conflicts that can arise.

Matt Schlegel:

And you can get, it’s the 80/20 rule. With a tool like DISC, you can get 80% of the way there and have your team come to that understanding. But where I would differentiate, say, the Enneagram with DISC is that if you are the leader of a team and you really want to understand how not only you work and what is your underlying motivation, but that of your teammates, then a tool like the Enneagram gets down to that next layer of understanding. And that’s one of the things that I really liked about the Enneagram, is that it really speaks to underlying motivations. So if I’m working with a teammate, and if I understand that the way I personally am motivated is not necessarily the same way that my teammate is motivated, then when I’m working with them, I can frame the activity more in alignment with how they’re motivated so that they come to an understanding of how this is contributing to the success and effectiveness of the overall team. And so that’s, I’d say, one of the big differentiators for me, between Enneagram and many of the other systems.

Rebecca Jenkins:

I am fascinated by this, Matt. So how does it actually bring out your underlying motivational factors? And could you give us some examples, maybe share your own perhaps, of how it gets to the root of that? Because I think many people aren’t really sure what motivates them. So how does it bring that out?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. So the Enneagram, the Enneagram has nine different types, and you can think about it in terms of three groups of three. And it says that there’s the gut people, there’s the heart people and the head people. And you can kind of use that as the starting point. So some people are starting with thoughts, or in their head, some people are starting with their feelings, or their heart, their relationship of feelings with other people. And then other people are starting with their instincts, it’s like their gut instincts. So those are the three different starting points that the Enneagram speaks to. And so once you know what your Enneagram type is, you will know where your starting point is.

Matt Schlegel:

So for instance, my starting point is in my head. So I’m thinking, I’m thinking all the time, thinking, thinking, thinking. And for people who know the Enneagram, I’m an Enneagram Type Six. And for the thinking people, which it’s the Five, Six, and Seven, those types, the underlying issue is anxiety. And so that’s our main motivating force and it doesn’t mean we don’t have access to feelings or instinct, it’s just, that’s kind of the starting point. And as I started to use the Enneagram and I understood that I’m a Type Six, then I had this greater self-awareness of how anxiety was playing into my thoughts, my actions, my approach to life. And once you have that level of understanding of how this overriding influence is affecting you, and you have a name for it, then you could start to work with it.

Matt Schlegel:

And you can start to say, “Well, where is this benefiting me? And where is it hindering me? And how can I use the good aspects of it?” And then start to minimize the more negative sides of it. And so just having that, self-awareness just allows you to really start to work on some of these dimensions that allow you to come a more effective leader. Now, I’m talking about the story of the Type Six, but each one of those nine types has a different starting point, each one of them has a superpower strength, but also it has some aspects that are holding that type back. And once you have understanding of that dynamic within yourself, then you can work on it and just become that much better of a leader. And I think that’s the journey that I encourage all leaders to embark on. And I think that the Enneagram’s a great tool for that.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Well, I’ve got a question of around maybe imagine that I’ve got a team of 20, they all go through this process, or they take this assessment rather, it’s not a process, I guess, and do I then, or would any leader then know that all the certain types maybe prone to anxiety? Because how would a leader deal with that? Is that shared with the leader?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. So I mean, if you use the Enneagram with your team and I’ve done this a number of times, right?

Rebecca Jenkins:

Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

So one of the best things that comes out of it is that it gives everybody a vocabulary to talk about these dynamics that are happening in the team. So that, far and away, when working with teams, is the biggest takeaway, because then now people know how to talk about that. “Oh, you’re being such a Type One right now,” or, “Oh, I can see why you want to do that because that’s what a Type Five would want to do. Is that the right thing to do right now?” And so you can use the Enneagram in that way to just have everybody understand what their teammates dynamics are, but then also have that vocabulary that allows people to address conflicts when they come up, and gives them a vocabulary to get at what’s underlying that.

Matt Schlegel:

So just as an example, I’m a Type Six and my brain lives in the future, I am always in the future. I’m just thinking about the future. What if this happens? What if that happens? But not everybody lives in the future. A lot of people are really good at living in the present, and then some people actually are better at living in the past, and they’re kind of living in their feelings. And once you understand that dynamic, then you can watch people have conversations. One person is talking about something in the past, one person is talking about something in the future, they’re just completely talking past each other. They’re not meeting at all. And so once you understand that, “Oh, they’re talking about different points in time,” and then getting them to say, “Well, let’s come together here and just talk about the present,” then they start to see eye to eye. So there’s a lot of different aspects of the Enneagram that come in to play, especially in the dynamics and the relationships between different types.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Could you share some examples, Matt, where you’ve worked in businesses, where this has been very powerful, and what results teams have got through going through the Enneagram process?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. So what we’ve been talking about is using the Enneagram as more a personality system, and a tool for people to understand each other and have those conversations. And that’s a fantastic use for the Enneagram, and the dominant use of the Enneagram. It’s actually not the way that I generally use the Enneagram, I use it in a different way. And this is one of the epiphanies that I had with the Enneagram. If you look at the Enneagram diagram, it’s a circle with a bunch of numbers around it. And I was thinking, when I saw this, it kind of looks like a clock. If you remove all the lines from the middle, it’s just a circle with numbers around it. And that got me thinking that why are the Enneagram types in numbers?

Matt Schlegel:

And it occurred to me that each one of the Enneagram dynamics is a dynamic that plays into human problem solving. And the Enneagram describes the exact order in which humans solve problems. Now, I’m an engineer and I love solving problems, could be technical problems, but now it much more fascinating to me to solve team problems. So now I have this framework that describes how teams move through problem solving, and I facilitate teams to move through problem solving in the order described by the Enneagram.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Oh, that’s very interesting.

Matt Schlegel:

It is just amazing how effective teams can be when they systematically use that approach and move around the circle through problem solving. Now, do you actually need to know the Enneagram dynamics to do that? You actually don’t, you can just move around and just get the team into, “This is the dynamic of Type One, this is what we’re going to do today.” Type One is the type that says, “Hey, that’s not right. It shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this.” And their instincts are telling them, “This isn’t right.” Well, what’s the first step in problem solving, “Hey, that’s not right, there’s a problem here. It shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this.” So that’s how that dynamic is the first step in problem solving and on and around the circle.

Matt Schlegel:

But you can, if you’re a facilitator, you can say, “Well, this is the sequence of steps we’re going to go through. And today we’re going to examine the problem. We’re going to look at the problem and we’re going to look at how it shouldn’t be, that’s the problem.” Then flip that coin on the other side and say, “Well, how should it be? What would you like to see the world look like, in the world where there isn’t a problem?” And that’s the dynamic of Type One. And that’s how I use it with teams as I move them through each step in and problem solving.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Okay. So do you recommend then that a very successful team will have a mix of all of these different personality traits?

Matt Schlegel:

Well, so it’s exceedingly rare that that happens, exceedingly rare, for a number of reasons, and you know them. People hire people like themselves, and so you end up with very lopsided teams. And this is another way to use the Enneagram. It’s like, “If I want to be an effective problem solving team, then how do I balance my team?” And when I talk about this in my book, Teamwork 9.0, is how to diagnose your team and then how to balance it. I also talk about how each type has more or less ease of access to the other types. So for instance, as a Type Six, I have pretty easy access to the types on either side of me, the Five and the Seven. I also have pretty easy access to Types Three and Nine. And then I start to have harder time accessing some of those other numbers.

Matt Schlegel:

So if I have teammates that can compliment me in those other dynamics, so even if we don’t have a team with every single type, just because of our ability to access some of the other types, we can create a complimentary team with far fewer than nine types.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Okay.

Matt Schlegel:

And I talk about for instance, there’s these three balanced teams, the One, the Four and the Seven, the Two, the Five and the Eight, and the Three, the Six and the Nine. And each one of those teams of three people essentially have pretty ease of access to all the dynamics. And the curious thing about this, Rebecca, is that in companies, when I go in, I see this all the time, I see the Three, the Six and the Nine come together and work together. I see the Two, the Five and the Eight work together. I see the One, the Four and the Seven work together. It’s just organic and natural that those teams coalesce to work together, and it’s because they form these very complimentary teams.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Okay. So when you say have access to those numbers, do you mean I’m reading that as relate better to those numbers? Is that what you mean?

Matt Schlegel:

That’s not exactly what I mean.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Okay.

Matt Schlegel:

As we’re working through problem solving, there’s different dynamics that come into play, and the Enneagram says there’s nine distinct dynamics in the problem solving. Now, if I’m a Type Six, of course, I have very easy access to Type Six, but what’s my ability then to access those other types? So that’s what I’m talking about when I say access to that dynamic.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Oh, I understand.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, I’m saying during problem solving, when you need to do this one particular activity, am I very good at doing it? Or do I need to bring in somebody else who’s much better at that?

Rebecca Jenkins:

Okay. I think if people are really interested in what you’ve got to say, they can go to your website, can’t they? And take an assessment themselves.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes, I do. I have an assessment available on my website. It’s a complimentary assessment that they can access. And the website is evolutionaryteams.com, and the survey can also be accessed at enneassurvey.com, so E-N-N-E-A-S-U-R-V-E-Y.com. In either of those ways you can get to a complimentary test that will let you know, start you on that journey to understand what your dominant strategy, Enneagram strategy is, Enneagram dynamic.

Rebecca Jenkins:

I think, I mean, that’s great because there’s a lot more to this than we can cover in this conversation. But Matt…

Matt Schlegel:

Sure is.

Rebecca Jenkins:

You’ve written a whole book on it, for instance.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. And even I only for feel like I’m scratching the surface, I am discovering new things about it every day.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Well, that’s fantastic. And Matt, could you give us an example where, some real practical tips maybe, that our listeners could, one, they could go and take an assessment, but what else would you suggest that they might do to really get teams working together, highly productively and in a very coordinated and effective way? What practical tips might you give?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. So I would say to any leader or aspiring leader is to work on your own self-awareness, start there. And there’s a lot of different tools for doing that. We’ve been talking about the Enneagram, I just think that the Enneagram is one of the best tools, especially for leaders because it’s a little more complicated than some of the other systems, but it really is worth the extra effort for leaders who not only want understand themselves, but want to understand the underlying motivations of their teammates. Because as a leader, one, we want to understand, “Hey, what are we good at? And what are we not good at? And where can I compliment myself with other people with different dynamics to make us all a much more effective, powerful team?” So that’s one way of using this. And then, once you start to understand your own dynamic and you start to appreciate the dynamics of your teammates, and the underlying motivations of your teammates, then it helps you to have deeper and more meaningful conversations with your teammates.

Matt Schlegel:

And that, for people on your team, one, they’re going to really appreciate that you understand them, and at a very profound level. And it will also allow you to just build more trust with the people on your team, which is the basis for a lot of the interactions because a lot of times, if you don’t have that underlying trust and a conflict arises, people might, their brains might go to, “What are their intentions? Why they doing that? That just doesn’t seem right.” But if you’ve established the trust and you understand the underlying motivations, then it just becomes, “Oh, they’re doing that because of that. I get it, I get it. Let’s go have a conversation. We can fix this, it’s no big deal.” And it just, it makes those conversations so much easier when you have that vocabulary to really talk about the issues, and work through the conflict with your teammates.

Rebecca Jenkins:

I can imagine [crosstalk 00:25:42].

Matt Schlegel:

Recommendations, I know.

Rebecca Jenkins:

No, no, no, I think that’s a great recommendation. And I think what that would enable to happen, which is some of the key things that have come from leaders we talk with on the podcast, it increases emotional intelligence and authenticity. And when people feel they’re understood, they have a place of psychological safety, and they’re going to be able to come up with new ideas, and it will encourage innovation. So all those things that the leaders we have on this podcast are talking about that are essential to great leadership, I can imagine how all of that just provides that awareness and improves all of those aspects.

Matt Schlegel:

Precisely, precisely. I couldn’t have said it better myself, thank you.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Well, I can’t believe where time is gone, we are already 36 minutes into this, and I guess we ought to kind of wrap up at some point, which are there any closing feedback or thoughts really, that you would like to leave with our audience? We’ve talked about where they can go to take a complimentary assessment. But is there anything else that you would like to share as we wrap up the podcast?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. So here’s the one piece of advice I give for people, when they are starting on this journey, is that when you take the assessment, you’re going to score highly on two or three types, and low on other types. And use this as a process of elimination. Don’t take just the highest scoring one, take the highest two or three, and then start to read through the underlying motivations of different types and start to think about, “Okay, is my starting place in my head? Is it in my heart? Is it in my gut?” What is that underlying motivation? And then that will allow you to better get to which of those high scoring types is really your starting point dynamic.

Matt Schlegel:

And don’t worry, it’s not putting you in a box or anything like that, because we all do have access to all the different dynamics, but we’re tending to have a starting point. It’s like being right and left-handed I’m, right-handed, I start with my right hand, it doesn’t mean I don’t have a left hand. I have a left hand, I use it all the time, but I usually start with my right hand. Look at the Enneagram the same way and just find that your dominant starting point.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Yes.

Matt Schlegel:

And then from there, you can work out.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Well, that makes a lot of sense. It’s our dominant, more prominent, I don’t know, behaviors, I guess, or personality traits.

Matt Schlegel:

Right.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Yeah. It’s been really fascinating to understand that in more detail, Matt, really appreciate it. Thank you very much, indeed. And we will make sure that we put the links in the show notes so people can go directly there to access and have a complimentary insights and awareness as to where they are in the 12 different categories.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes. Well, thank you very much for the opportunity to share this with you today. It was a delight speaking with you.

Rebecca Jenkins:

Likewise, Matt, very, very enjoyable, and a key tool for leadership and development, so thank you very much, indeed. Thank you for listening to our podcast. And as always, if you enjoyed it, we welcome a review. And if you have any questions and like to get in touch with us, you can do that at the rjen.co.uk website.